Computer Player doubles way too easily

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rainervs
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Computer Player doubles way too easily

Post by rainervs » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:18 am

When playing offline with the Hard computer player, in a 129-point game ...

When computer has 8 or so pieces left all over his court ...

When I have 3 pieces left and they're on my 1-point (roll a 1 to bear off) ...

If I offer a double, the computer accepts it, even though he cannot win.

On his next turn, he offers me a double. Of course I accept it.

On my next turn, when I only have one piece left, I offer a double, and the computer accepts it!!!

Repeatedly, in many similar situations. Sometimes the Computer offers the double spontaneously in such a situation. I have gotten scores up to 40-4 (me winning). And I'm NOT that good of a player (ratings in the 1400s).

This is the only major weakness I have found in the computer player. It would be worth fixing. Thanks.

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Bad Boy 44
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Re: Computer Player doubles way too easily

Post by Bad Boy 44 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:56 pm

I had to use a bot in a game after a quitter left. When I put the bot in it was as useless as the player that quit it never played. I kicked the bot a number of times and put another thing in but it was still the same thing. I grabbed a guide to play the end of the game which was great, onya Grandma. BUT, leaves to question how many times has this happened before and have the bots finally gone on strike for all our constant abuse ?

rainervs
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Re: Computer Player doubles way too easily

Post by rainervs » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:27 pm

If you visit the offline single player mode, you will see that there are three levels of skill for the bots: Easy, Hard, and World Class. I suspect that the bot one gets as a substitute in the two-player mode is the Easy flavor, which is very easy to beat.

It would not be fair to the human player for the substitute bot to be better than the quitter! But it might be reasonable to choose a bot based on the rating of the quitter.

Another observation: I had 4 pieces left on the board, all a single point away from being born off, and the Hard Computer Player had pieces in three of the four quadrants, with nothing born off. And it doubled!! What could it have been thinking?

Death_Row
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Re: Computer Player doubles way too easily

Post by Death_Row » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:51 am

If nothing else there is a perception problem with computer dice that's not there with real dice. I've seen loaded/trick dice and you get the same feeling with the trick/loaded dice that you get with the computer dice of your game. I played several games for several days and in approx. 90% of the games played I got the same feeling I'd gotten with trick/loaded dice. From reading post listed at the link you listed at the beginning of this thread there is a problem (perception or other) ... "you don't get a good feeling from the game" It's a feeling I've never gotten from playing with an actual board and partner. It's a problem that should be seriously looked into....

I hope the mind set isn't "well just don't play the game"


Back to back games...
13FEB09:
Bot 3 doubles 3-2's to win
Bot 3 doubles 5s, 2s, 4s to win
Bot 3 doubles 2-6s, 1-5s to win

14FEB09:
Bot 4 doubles 2-2s, 3s, 5s
bot 6 doubles 2-2s, 4s, 5s, 6s
Bot 2 doubles 4s, 1s
bot 3 doubles 5s,1s,4s
bot 5 doubles 3-6s, 2-3s
bot 3 doubles 3-6s

15FEB09
bot 6 doubles 6s, 2-3s,2s, 2-1s
bot 4 doubles 2-6s, 5s, 4s
bot 5 doubles 4-6s, 5s
bot 2 doubles 6s, 5s




I don't profess to know to much about AI/neural network programming (even though I'm low level SQL/.NET programmer)... however if you have a problem with perception of the game you have a problem with the game that needs dealing with. Even though peoples complaints have "now" fallen on deaf ears the problem still remains (whether perceived or error in programming logic). Maybe a doubles limiting feature (number of doubles allowed per game) can be added.

C'mon guys get creative here....

Anybody listening?

Death_Row
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Re: Computer Player doubles way too easily

Post by Death_Row » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:57 pm

4 doubles in the first 5 throws.....

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Re: Computer Player doubles way too easily

Post by Death_Row » Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:40 pm

What's the odd's of getting the same roll 3 times in a row several times within days...?

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Re: Computer Player doubles way too easily

Post by Death_Row » Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:45 pm

unfortunately to stop this action whether it's happening to me or the bot... I have to restart the game... It get's totally ridiculous at times...

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Jonas
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Re: Computer Player doubles way too easily

Post by Jonas » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:27 am

This is an interesting Article on Backgammon AI and the perceived luck they have:
http://www.aifactory.co.uk/newsletter/2 ... n_myth.htm

The gist of it, is that the chances of rolling something that will permitting moves 1-6 is MUCH higher than moves 7-12. 6 being the MOST likely value to come up. So if you set pieces up to take advantage of the likelihood of getting some 6's, it's a pretty big advantage. I would get locked out of rolls because of my poor placements, where the AI or better players will get to move more often because luck favors the prepared mind :) That is, you don't know exactly what you're gonna get, but you can know that your more likely to get moves that are 1-6, its wise to plan for it.

Here's an other article on probability with 2 dice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice#Probability


As for doubles, we've combed over the data, and its statistically where it should be. Of course, off the top of my head, any roll has a 1/6th chance of being a double. The fist die is whatever it is, and the second die is 1 in 6 to be the same as the 1st. So it works out that statistically 1 in 6 rolls would be doubles of some sort. Of course that just stats, it won't actually work out that way in the real world for one game. ya have to take many more rolls into consideration to get the data to show its true nature which matches the statistics. try flipping a coin 10 times, it may or may not come out 5 heads and 5 tails. But if you flip it 1000 times, you probably gonna be a lot closer to a 500/500 distribution.

that not much comfort when you are playing a game I suppose, but if it was exactly even every game, whats the point of having a luck factor at all. Chess might be a better game if you need certainty. Dice are there to add chaos and surprise.

Also the AI definitely does not have any insight to ability to manipulate the rolls, nor does the server give any player including the AI specially rolls. To the server, it's entirely agnostic to who's siting in a seat, you and the AI are just numbers.

gilroy
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Re: Computer Player doubles way too easily

Post by gilroy » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:48 pm

I have to restart the game unfortunately to stop this action whether As for doubles, we've combed over the data,
gilroy

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