Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

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Gromph
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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Gromph » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:30 am

We have collected data from games played on our lobby server and analyzed the results. The distribution of rolling doubles and series of doubles is as it should be.

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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Death_Row » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:59 pm

I just played a game where the bot rolled doubles 5 sets of doubles in the last 7 roles of the game. Have you guys done testing on stand alone PC's. Maybe you can collect data from personal PC's. I'll allow you to collect game data. I noticed yesterday the faster I clicked (if I was on the bar) after the bot played it seemed the more doubles the bot and I got. Where in the middle of the game I got no doubles. I'm not saying the game is cheating... but there maybe something in your algorithm that needs looking into. What language is this written in?

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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by TonyD3 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:39 am

Sorry Jonas. You're wrong!

I have been recording the dice rolls. It is not unusual for the automated opponent's roll to do exactly what is needed to win.

Example: I just played a game in which I managed a great advantage in the early moves. The computer countered by giving the opponent four consecutive doubles (all high numbers). I had none at that point.

The opponent was then give two more doubles to assure the win. And, only after the win was assured, did the dice roll two doubles for me, one's and two's.

And in any game I've played, the computer opponent has rolled between 1.5 and 2 times the doubles that I rolled. That's not chance.

If the game was not intentionally loaded in the computer's favor (and I can't think of a reason to do that), then it's one heck of a clitch in the system. And that needs to be fixed.

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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Jonas » Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:36 pm

The logic that controls the die rolls has no information of what the computer needs. Nor does the AI have any knowledge of the Rolls prior to it's own roll.

We would have had to put in that logic for it to be able to a) roll what it needs, or b) take advantage of rolls before their rolled, and neither has been done.

If it appears the dice are rolling what it needs, it's either dumb luck, or its just more memorable than the times it doesn't.

One thing to keep in mind though, the AI does not play like people. It taught it self how to play, so even though it doesn't have access to the rolls, it may be able to play the odds better than most people. that is, it might be moving it's pieces to better take advantage of good luck than humans might.

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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Death_Row » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:54 am

The Backgammon game does not have a good feel to it (single player).... regarding the dice, how often and when the bot doubles. Something else I noticed.... I can have all my pieces on the board ready to come off and the bot can have half it's pieces off... I can offer a double and the computer will resign that game.... In other words... there is no way I can win (even if I doubled the rest of my turn/throws) and the bot/computer gives up.... logic problem (on both ends)...?

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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Jonas » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:57 am

Hrmm, ya Not sure why the Bot would resign. See the AI is a Neural Net, so it trained it self how to play, so nobody really knows how it thinks :)

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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Sailing_Away » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:43 pm

Neural Net! Well shoot! Talk about learned behaviors and human psychology, these bots learn to mimic the very behaviors of the people they play!

No wonder a few years ago I caught my ex in bed with Ol Buck! Shame on you all!
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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Death_Row » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:16 am

If nothing else there is a perception problem with computer dice that's not there with real dice. I've seen loaded/trick dice and you get the same feeling with the trick/loaded dice that you get with the computer dice of your game. I played several games for several days and in approx. 90% of the games played I got the same feeling I'd gotten with trick/loaded dice. From reading post listed at the link you listed at the beginning of this thread there is a problem (perception or other) ... "you don't get a good feeling from the game" It's a feeling I've never gotten from playing with an actual board and partner. It's a problem that should be seriously looked into....

I hope the mind set isn't "well just don't play the game"

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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Death_Row » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:45 am

13FEB09:
Bot 3 doubles 3-2's to win
Bot 3 doubles 5s, 2s, 4s to win
Bot 3 doubles 2-6s, 1-5s to win

14FEB09:
Bot 4 doubles 2-2s, 3s, 5s
bot 6 doubles 2-2s, 4s, 5s, 6s
Bot 2 doubles 4s, 1s
bot 3 doubles 5s,1s,4s
bot 5 doubles 3-6s, 2-3s
bot 3 doubles 3-6s

15FEB09
bot 6 doubles 6s, 2-3s,2s, 2-1s
bot 4 doubles 2-6s, 5s, 4s
bot 5 doubles 4-6s, 5s
bot 2 doubles 6s, 5s

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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Death_Row » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:49 am

All are back to back games....Never seen so many doubles in my life....
Death_Row wrote:13FEB09:
Bot 3 doubles 3-2's to win
Bot 3 doubles 5s, 2s, 4s to win
Bot 3 doubles 2-6s, 1-5s to win

14FEB09:
Bot 4 doubles 2-2s, 3s, 5s
bot 6 doubles 2-2s, 4s, 5s, 6s
Bot 2 doubles 4s, 1s
bot 3 doubles 5s,1s,4s
bot 5 doubles 3-6s, 2-3s
bot 3 doubles 3-6s

15FEB09
bot 6 doubles 6s, 2-3s,2s, 2-1s
bot 4 doubles 2-6s, 5s, 4s
bot 5 doubles 4-6s, 5s
bot 2 doubles 6s, 5s

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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Sailing_Away » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:37 pm

Only one explanation exists... with artificial intelligence through neural network programming, the bots have learned how to release the dice in just the right way to ensure getting doubles. They must roll thousands and thousands of times per day. If you did that with physical dice, you might intuitively learn how to make them work for you like that, too. That's the miracle of teaching computers to "learn", yes?

:mrgreen:
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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Death_Row » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:07 am

I don't profess to know to much about AI/neural network programming (even though I'm low level SQL/.NET programmer)... however if you have a problem with perception of the game you have a problem with the game that needs dealing with. Even though peoples complaints have "now" fallen on deaf ears the problem still remains (whether perceived or error in programming logic). Maybe a doubles limiting feature (number of doubles allowed per game) can be added.

C'mon guys get creative here....

Anybody listening?

.

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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Death_Row » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:07 pm

Jonas,

I hope just because the link shows other games and people are having the same issue makes it ok... what this show's is (if nothing else) there is a perception problem with the game/computer-dice. Is the mind set : everyone else is having the problem so that's just the way it is?

Be the first to step up to the plate and deal with the perception problem...Take the lead...

Jonas wrote:There seems to be an interesting effect in backgammon that folks feel like the computer gets special rolls to its benefit.

I'm here to tell you that not only it's it not the case, but that ethically we wouldn't do that. That just not how we roll. :) (sorry couldn't resist)

Anyhow, it seems that just about any backgammon implementation has suffered though similar accusations, and their authors have come to their creations defense.

So beyond standing on one foot, blindfolded, and doing a jig to help sell the point that we're not' horrible mean people out to get you, I present some interesting post on "Computer dice" in backgammon that you may find revealing:

http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+541


It's a good read about randomness, and psychology.

have fun

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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Jonas » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:11 pm

We've thought of complicated ways that would attempt remove some of the randomness to try to make the rolls feel more "fair" to counter the perception problem.

The concern there would be introducing more problems. So less say we do something like roll the dice, should we null the roll if it doesn't match a certain criteria of likeliness? Would that make the game less fun in the sense that you'd likely not be that surprised ever? What would be the best way to determine that a roll needs to be rerolled?

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Re: Are the rolls stacked in the computers favor, absolutly not.

Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:16 pm

Any rolls that I don't like should be null and void... LOL or in my favor....


JUST DUST

PS - Sorry I look at it this way, if the rolls suck to day, I go play hearts, if hearts cards suck I go play euchre, if euchre is "Loppy, LOL" I go play spades.... they hardly ever complain over there LOL.
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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