Does Practice Make Perfect?

User avatar
Dead Presidents
Active Poster
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:39 am
Contact:

Does Practice Make Perfect?

Post by Dead Presidents » Wed May 02, 2007 6:23 am

Many this will not apply to I suppose. But to some it does.



In alot of things that we all do practice makes perfect. Here in hardwood I've had random people come up to me and ask how do you get so good. Or they ask how do you get a rating so high. There are also some people in hardwood that have been in there for years now. And they want to get better. They may not show it because it would make it look as if they dont play the game for fun.(Which happens to be the deadlist sin in hardwood). But they do. I believe that some people just don't know how to practice to get better. People tell me all the time they want to get better. But don't want to step up to a challange. They dont want to play above their level. Well you can't get much better playing the people at the same level. In order to get better you have to play the ones that are better than you. Thats just what I think.

I can't write a spades book like Galt or Joe Andrews.

But I can tell you what I know.

I use to be a "scrub". Everyone that is good in anything started as a rookie. I wanted to be like all the other people in hardwood. Playing 2000 an what not. Especially when I realized I sucked and was playing the game wrong. (There is no wrong way to play the game, but there is a right way.) So I decided to play and really look at why did I lose that game. Why did my partner that has some of the highest nics in hardwood get mad at me. Here's a little secret. Acceptance is important. You have to accept that you are not as near skilled as you think you are. You have to realize who is better than you. And when you start beating them you know you are making progress. (But that's what the rating system is here for). I don't really think spade books help. Spades is something you have to learn by just trying it. DONT BE AFRAID TO EXPERIMENT.
You may lose a game for experimenting. But whats one loss. Besides its only a game. But lemme just get to the point.

To get better in spades you need someone better than you to correct you.
You need to want to get better and take action.
And if you are really serious about it, go and replay your game. (It helps).
Counting cards is important too. Now alot of people think counting cards is actually card counting when it is just remembering how many cards are left in a suit. There are 13 cards in a suit. (And you wonder why you only need to know how to count to 13 to play this game).

I'm not really good at this writing thing.
But if you want some help you can find me in smoots.
Just yell for Curtis. Or you can send me an IM to my yahoo which is

Yahoo: mv2bx@yahoo.com

Anyways. Tell me if you believe practice makes perfect. Or some people are just hopeless.
Spades is a beautiful thing.

p0is0ned_fl0wer
Active Poster
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 pm
Contact:

Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Wed May 02, 2007 7:03 am

Interesting concept..and like anything what applies to some does not apply to others.

I can only speak from personal experience and I too did not suddenly fly into Spades with a high rating. (yeah hard to believe I'm not perfect I know) I once was that "scrub" (ok perhaps never that extreme but I was a beginner) as you so vulgarly call them. But.. we all have to start somewhere. I personally have a natural aptitude for cards, I watch the board, the nuances, I sometimes have what's called a sixth sense..personally I call it a higher intelligence (no offence to others). I must stress I am NOT a card counter although I know and believe it helps many, so in that sense practicing the counting of cards can make better..perfect no, but better yes. I genuinely feel If you have no aptitude for the game in the first place, your level of room for improvement will always be limited. Things like last hand bidding, bidding to win or to stop another team from winning is my sorest point. There are SO SO many people who just cannot grasp this. For example I played a game the other week. The score was 477 to I forget something like 423. I am the last bidder the bid on the table is 10. The opps have the 7 bid in total, my p's bid is 3. I cannot bid 1, unless my P and I can fool them into setting us and bagging out. I couldnt go nil as it happened (I had the ace) so my only option is to bid 4 and take it to 14. My P asks at the table if I am drunk. (heh no trust!) Needless to say we set them and go on to win, but even if we hadn't ..my bid was correct, which most people including my P did not grasp...but at least he asked me afterwards my reasoning behing what I bid..to me it's obvious..but from experience I have learned it is not always the case. Herein lies the key to improvement..he asked why?..there is no harm in asking why a person does something (obviously after the game not in it..lol) and it offers you a chance to glimpse into the mindset of another..and lo and behold now he knows why I made the bid 14 and not 13.. and why? Well why make it 13 when it's imperative we have to set them ..so that bag is mine anway :lol:

As to my own improvement, I agree wholeheartedly with Curtis that striving to play others or with others whom are better helps no end. It certainly helped me.It goes back to the same old chestnut of so many people have the inbuilt aptitude yet they consistently play only others whom are weaker .. hence they never even give themselves a chance to shall we say improve. Then of course there are people whom have played for many many years who may be lucky to achieve a 1500/1600 rating but chances are they are better players than those that pick on the weak..and to me they are the people whom I consider practice makes perfect applies to. I have more respect for this kind of player in HW than anyone who chooses to consistently sit at the same monotonous rating (usually provi).. you see people with maybe one of 2 nics only who strive to better their game and good for them!

One final point as to these Spades book.. I personally would never touch one..the only way to learn something of this nature is to actually play the damn game. To me that would be like being given a book on how to play the piano with no actual piano..lol

Whatever the rating and whatever the game..people need to remember that is is a game..not real life. Play to the best of your ability and have fun..it's what it's all about. I take my losses as well as my wins..when we start putting money on the table..then it's game on :wink:

User avatar
Dead Presidents
Active Poster
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:39 am
Contact:

Post by Dead Presidents » Wed May 02, 2007 7:13 am

I couldnt have said it any better Shelley. And yes a card sense or what you call a six sense helps. Its just a sense that performs on how good you are tho. I also have more respect for the people that dont sit at provi all the time. And I agree with the spade book piano comparison. Spades is like riding a bike. You cant read a book on how to ride a bike and suddenly start riding. You have to try it out for yourself. Mess up. And get better.
Spades is a beautiful thing.

p0is0ned_fl0wer
Active Poster
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 pm
Contact:

Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Wed May 02, 2007 7:19 am

Oh I forgot to add one point. As to myself I honestly don't think I have room for improvement.. and no that's not being bigheaded. The reason why you may ask? Well I am in no way saying I don't make mistakes (everyone does..) but the crux of the matter is I recognise them That is the KEY factor.. Might trick me once but I won't let you trick me twice.. :wink:

User avatar
Dead Presidents
Active Poster
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:39 am
Contact:

Post by Dead Presidents » Wed May 02, 2007 7:23 am

Dead Presidents sigh @ shelley. Honestly there is a limit to how good you can perform in hardwood. And your rating will tell you that. Once you set table that are so high you wait hours for a game. And you end up facing the same four people when you play. Then you know you've reached the top of hardwood.

But thats only hardwood, what about the global scale ;)
Spades is a beautiful thing.

p0is0ned_fl0wer
Active Poster
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 pm
Contact:

Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Wed May 02, 2007 7:26 am

Dude i'll take on the world..LMAO.. I'm not afraid of anyone you know that. Is it my fault I end up playing the same half a dozen people? What you want me to do sit on provi and work on some oh soooo sought after 20-0's.. Gimme a break. I'd rather not play..which is pretty much what I am doing

User avatar
Unicron
Illuminated One
Illuminated One
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:55 pm
Location: Grants Pass

Post by Unicron » Wed May 02, 2007 10:55 am

Card games are like golf. Practice makes perfect in practice, but sometimes you are just practicing losing until your luck changes again. :)
Image

User avatar
Dust In The Wind
Guide
Posts: 5344
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:29 pm
Location: North Ga Mts

Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed May 02, 2007 11:01 am

Time to go to live Tourney's and win some money Flower, there you will play some of the best.

JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

User avatar
Galt
Grand Master
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:57 am
Contact:

Post by Galt » Wed May 02, 2007 11:44 am

For anyone who thinks that Spades books can't help, I challenge you to read the comments either on my site or the 67 reviews posted on Amazon. For you to be able to say that DP merely indicates that you are, although clearly a good player, nowhere near as good a player as you could be.

The truth is that, for almost any player who wants to improve, a good book will help more and faster than anything else, and that includes years of experience and learning playing.

Why is it that I can offer a money back guarantee on my book? It is because I have not had to take one back in the 3 and a half years that I have been offering it.

The reason that I am posting this is becuase the point of view that you have presented is the single greatest mistake in judgement that holds back the majority of Spaders from improving their games and, most importantly, having the most fun that they possibly can playing the game. To see a player who purports to know of what he speaks say it just goes to further reinforce the problem.

I decided to add the folowing:

If history has shown you to be a 1500 player, if you get my book and make a sincere attempt to digest and implememt its teachings, you will be up to 1700 in just a matter of weeks. If the book fails to get you there, I will send you your money back.

If you are a 1700 player, you will get to 1900 in a couple of months at the slowest. Again, if you don't, let me know and I will give you your money back.

Whwn you go past 1700 and 1900, you can send me a little bonus if you'd like.
Image

User avatar
Dead Presidents
Active Poster
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:39 am
Contact:

Post by Dead Presidents » Wed May 02, 2007 12:45 pm

None of us are good as we could be(WHICH IS PERFECT) As long as you have a loss next to your belt you can do better. But like the topic says.
Does Practice Make Perfect Galt? (Not your book) Not to mention an improvement from 1500 to 1700 means nothing...that is simple playing the 20 games of provi...people face other people below their level and get 20-0's at an average 1700...not to mention they play pass...very few people have had 20-0 without pass...But then again provi isnt nothing to talk about.
I'm not really good with this typing thing.
But I'd like to pard you and oppose you.
I can't face you in person so we will do it in hardwood.
Then you can give me my evaluation of how good I could be.
And I will do the same for you Galt.
You can contact me at mv2bx@yahoo.com
Spades is a beautiful thing.

User avatar
Galt
Grand Master
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:57 am
Contact:

Post by Galt » Wed May 02, 2007 1:09 pm

DP you do the community a real disservice with this stuff.

Practice does absolutely not make perfect, or often even good. This has been proven by data, not supposition.

The reason for this is that, for most players, playing Spades for 25 years simply means playing Spades the same way for the last 24 and a half years. If you don't beleive this, read the reviews that I referenced.

I will say it in a different way. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is regarding whether or not my book will help players. I know that ratings mean nothing to you. That is typical of players who don't understand the true nature of ratings, the laws of probability, and statistical analysis.

If a player has a 1500 rating, he, by observation certainly does not cheat. If he did, he would have a much higher rating. If he reads a book and his rating goes up 200 points in 3 weeks, it can be only because he learned something, unless of course he decided to start cheating at the same time.

As I said. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. Are you willing to send me 12.95 everytime somebody improves dramatically as a result of reading the book.

Two of them dropped by to thank me for just that while I was playing in HW yesterday. It is rare that a week goes by when it does not happen.

I was searching through the Expert Spades archives the other day and read something that I either had not seen before or forgotten that I had seen years ago. I learned something from it.

If you are truly interested in helping Spaders inprove, you would encourage them to read every single thing that they can find on the game.
Image

p0is0ned_fl0wer
Active Poster
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 pm
Contact:

Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Wed May 02, 2007 1:16 pm

Where to start ..where to start.

Point # 1.
I would like to reiterate that I was only speaking from personal experience. I in no way denounce other players whom work hard for their ratings and may I add have fun doing it. HW is a fun site and that really should be the point of playing. I enjoy a fun good game with fun like minded people whatever the rank..of course I like to win..whomever says the enjoy losing is a liar..just sometimes winning against certain opps is more fun.. Like when DP kicks my booty..he loves it.. LOL

Point # 2.

I agreed with DP that I genuinely feel a book on spades would not have nor would it now help me become a better player. I am a 2k/2100 player, whom has achieved this standing on my own merit through trial and error and sure losing plenty of games on the way. It's the losses that improve you not the wins. So I have a number of losses. I am far from perfect but I realise my mistakes and correct them as need be. Reading a book would not help ME do that.. sure it may do others but it's not for ME. This did not set out to be a personal attack. I trained as a "trainer" for a large organisation and the first thing you learn about teaching, mentoring others is that each person has different learning curves and learning styles. To say that a book would improve everyone is frankly not true. We all have different personalities and react and grow in different manners this applies to all walks of life not just spades. My learning style may be vastly different to the person next to me. The best way is seriously trial and error to find your own strengths and weaknesses

Point #3
The reason that I am posting this is becuase the point of view that you have presented is the single greatest mistake in judgement that holds back the majority of Spaders from improving their games and, most importantly, having the most fun that they possibly can playing the game. To see a player who purports to know of what he speaks say it just goes to further reinforce the problem.
I am finding this just a touch ironic. I do not claim to know everything. I am human I will make mistakes.I am not perfect or I would win every single game. What I do know is that I cannot be made better through anyone elses teaching other than my own. I personally do think I know what I am talking about, I just choose not to enforce that on others plays.

Point #4 I have played live tourneys..cards are cards to me whether online of in person. Also I played quite happily on the play for money side of the Zoo til they closed that down. I would LOVE to see HW have a money side of it.. Perhaps we could get that Jason? Nice to see you on our topic too..smooch

User avatar
Dead Presidents
Active Poster
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:39 am
Contact:

Post by Dead Presidents » Wed May 02, 2007 1:47 pm

Apparently you have it wrong. I do care about rating. I play so my ratings can get high as possible and to have fun doing it. Galt just to let you know. You say people go from 1500-1700 and 1700-1900 reading your book. 1700 is nothing...and anyone can get 1900...but no one in hardwood maintains it...only a few players, ME being one of them.
Does it really make you such a great person that you can put what me and poison flower already know into a book. Your book my help. But its not gonna get ANY player as good as they should. If your book can make people get so good why have I been facing the SAME 1900s for a year now Galt. You obviously dont know much about hardwood. People can learn just as much reading a spade book by commiting trial and error.
I understand the true nature of rating. Ratings tells it all. Ratio is meaningless. I dont even see you playing 2000+ games...and for me to be a 2000 player and to many the best player in reg pards you can't tell me that I dont understand. When you come in hardwood and set 2050's table and wait hours for game because they rest of hardwood isn't at the level of 2050 then you can say I dont understand the game. You think anyone can maintain a 2000 nic Galt? HAs your book produced any live spade tournament winnners? Has it produced players that can reach the peak rating in hardwood? Why is it that all of the players that play 2000 here didnt need a book to help them get better? Ive been playing spades for 2 years Galt. I learned spades in hardwood. I was 1900 in a year. I know people that been playing all there life and havent even gotten 1800. It doesnt matter how many people buy your book. The Bible is the most purchased piece of literature all time. But you dont see majority of people living in Jesus' footsteps.

Galt, are you as good as you should be?

Glad we established that practice doesnt make perfect.

And when you challange me and play me and pard me.
THEN YOU CAN JUDGE.
Last edited by Dead Presidents on Wed May 02, 2007 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Spades is a beautiful thing.

p0is0ned_fl0wer
Active Poster
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 pm
Contact:

Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Wed May 02, 2007 1:52 pm

Hey can you 2 gnomes take this outside please!

User avatar
grandmaS
Grand Master
Posts: 5705
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 4:23 pm
Location: Washington State
Contact:

Post by grandmaS » Wed May 02, 2007 2:11 pm

/me comes in with the chocolate chip cookies.........


Ok all its supposed to be a discussion not a place to attack each other. I hate cleaning up after blood bathes..............

Can we just agree that for SOME playing and learning from their mistakes works out best and for, SOME reading books works, and for SOME they just wanna have FUN and don't care if they ever reach 2000 or play in a live tour?

Everyone likes to win, but its more important to some then to others, and everyone has their own style of learning.

And if you can't cool down and discuss it like adults, I am sending in the lions :)
Image

I am woman I am strong

Post Reply