Another Bid Quiz

User avatar
x MISSY x
Big Poster
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:00 pm
Contact:

Another Bid Quiz

Post by x MISSY x » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:53 pm

We Have 448 Points and 8 bags
They Have 491 Points and 1 bags

Bid South: 3
Bid West: 2

What do you bid with this hand?

Deal North:
6s Qs Ks
3h 6h 8h
6c Qc Ac
8d 0d Kd Ad
Image

User avatar
Galt
Grand Master
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:57 am
Contact:

Post by Galt » Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:41 pm

You have a foced bid here, which is 6.

When sitting 3rd seat last hand, if not bidding NIl, or trying to bag the opps, you absolutely must force the opps to take the table bid to 13 in order to win the game. Anything less allows them to win the game more easily than they should have to.

Here, you must catch up by 50 points. Therefore, you must outbid the opps by 50. With 13 tricks available, that means a 9 to 4 bid on the table.

If you do bid your team to 9, the opps must then win 5 tricks to keep you from winning.

If you were to bid less.... say take your team to 8, the opps could win the game by bidding and winning only 4 tricks.

When you bid your 6, East may still bid Nil, but so be it. You simply can't let them win with less than 5 tricks if not bidding NIl.

The critical point here is it MATTERS NOT WHETHER YOU THINK THAT YOUR SIDE CAN WIN 9 TRICKS. IT IS A FORCED BID.

I am glad that you posted this one. It reinfoces a very important aspect of winning Spades play.

As an edit here, if East does not Nil, it really does not matter if he bids 1, 2, or takes it to 14 with a 3 bid. If they set you they win, if they don't they don't.

The option does exist to try to bag your team by bidding 1 and dumping.
That would result in 440 for your team and 461 for the opps if they were successful. A 1 bid by East might result in the need for some careful play, but I wouldn't get bluffed here. Make your 9 tricks and try to avoid the bags if possible, but don't get tricked into a set of the 9 bid.
Image

User avatar
x MISSY x
Big Poster
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:00 pm
Contact:

Post by x MISSY x » Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:47 pm

I got lucky by makin the wrong decision and goin 5...the last bid was a 1 bid.

Another question for you tho..Game is still winnable how do you play it?
Image

User avatar
Galt
Grand Master
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:57 am
Contact:

Post by Galt » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:03 am

Well, I'm not sure exactly what you are asking, but first I am just glad that East did not bid 2 and force us into now winning 10 tricks rather than 9.

It's a 12 table bid, so at least if we bag the opps are set. I am using the same approach as I mentioned earlier. I will worry about bags after I am sure that we are going to make our bid.

1 is a really bad bid here by East unless it is a true bluff bid, but since a 2 bid (4 team) would win the game, if East has a good enough hand to be bluffing, why not just bid the win?

I will be interested to hear what happened.
Image

User avatar
x MISSY x
Big Poster
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:00 pm
Contact:

Post by x MISSY x » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:08 am

LOL im not sure why he went 1....I think he was thinkin bag us..It worked we got down to spades only and i led my low spade. Pard had the ace and let the trick go by. sooo not only did we bag out but no set lol. I didnt see the 6 bid till after i went 5
Image

_S_X_Eian_
Active Poster
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:33 am

Post by _S_X_Eian_ » Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:06 am

I also bid 6 based on score alone. The cards are not important right now although you do have some nice cards. If you were able to bid nil it would not help you they could bid 1 and easily bag you. In this situation you are left with 3 bids. A bid of 5 gives you 528 (8) to opponents 511 (1) with a 10 bid to last bidder. They bid 2 for game making table bid 12.
A bid of 6 makes you 538 (8) to opponents 511 (1) making table bid 11 to last bidder. They need to push it to 14 with a bid of 3 in order to win the game you have to make 9 tricks to opponents needing 5 tricks. The next option is a 7 bid by you. This makes table bid 12 to last bidder and the score 548(8) you and 511(1) them. They can only catch up with a 4 bid which makes an unrealistic 16 bid. They would just bid 2 and go for set. With a 5 bid or a 7 bid the opponents need to win 4 tricks for game and with a 6 bid they have to win 5. 6 Maximizes your chances but you do need the cards to go with it. But like Galt said it is a forced bid. I have had people in last hand situations argue till they were blue in the face when I asked why they didn't bid 1 or 2 more and they said they couldn't make the tricks yet during the hand the cards fell right and they took 2 extra tricks. You have to bid for game and hope to make some false tricks (killing kings, promoting a suit, a well timed finesse) and use some trickery to win the game.

Eian


We Have 448 Points and 8 bags
They Have 491 Points and 1 bags

Bid South: 3
Bid West: 2

What do you bid with this hand?

Deal North:
6s Qs Ks
3h 6h 8h
6c Qc Ac
8d 0d Kd Ad

User avatar
Galt
Grand Master
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:57 am
Contact:

Post by Galt » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:00 am

I would imagine, my friend, that you would agree with me that one of the most frustrating things in Spades is when your pard, sitting 3rd on the last hand, bids on his or her cards rather than on the score.

So many games are needlessly lost due to this mistake that it is hard to exaggerate.

It is why I added a table in the 2nd edition of the book listing the forced bids for all possible score situations.

Again, thanks for the post Missy.

Edit:

I wanted to add this. The very best way to incorporate this 3rd seat last hand bidding approach into your game is to start to automatically do the necessary calculation PRIOR to either the deal of the last cards or at least looking at your last hand cards.

Going to the last hand, look at the score, and determine how many points you are either ahead or behing interms of 10s... i.e., 10, 20, 30. etc.

Then, determine what bid your team must go to in order to force a 13 bid on the opps. It is not as hard as it may sound.

If you are down by 30, that would be an 8/5 bid.

Down by 50, a 9/4 bid.

If the opps need to gain 40, a 5 bid by your team forces the opps into the 9 trick scenario discussed above.
Last edited by Galt on Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
x MISSY x
Big Poster
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:00 pm
Contact:

Post by x MISSY x » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:24 am

Umm Todd u remeber that game we lost to you in charlotte? We sooo woulda won if my pard had just went 1 more. Instead the table turned n yall were givin another opportunity to come back.

Normally im better at third seat bids, but for some reason I went with a 5. I guess my theory was if i go five they go 2 and we have to set.

Question for galt tho. When ur sittin on a possible set like we were and your leadin from your spades do u generally lead low with 3 spades king queen high? or do u lead ur king?
Image

User avatar
Galt
Grand Master
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:57 am
Contact:

Post by Galt » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:11 pm

I will generall lead the King if I believe that my pard has the stronger hand. I want to both get the high spades out and also get my hand unblocked so that when pard finally gets in he can stay in his hand.

This is kind of a hard thing to generalize about though, and I am sure that at time I do just the reverse. Todd is a real expert at this stuff. Let's find out what he does as a rule.

The risk with leading a high one is if pard has a singleton Ace, but if that is the case, we are not really in a strong position anyway, and setting is not a very realistic scenario.
Image

_S_X_Eian_
Active Poster
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:33 am

Post by _S_X_Eian_ » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:22 pm

Thanks for the compliment Galt lol. I don't necessarily have a rule it all depends on the situation and my other cards. My partners as a rule play their highest spade when I lead low. I like opening up the spades suit if I have strength in a side suit such as a 5/5 split. I give my partner an opportunity to make their spade 10 or J or at least draw out the A. There is always the risk that you will lose a K or Q trick with a finesse but this would happen anyway if you lead out the K. Leading out low can maximize your spade power and keep you in control.

Now if you don't have any side suit power then you could be in trouble if you kept your spades. It might be better to lead out your K and get the A out and let your partner know where the spades are if you think they will be keeping the stronger hand. If your K slides then play your Q and then your other spade getting rid of the remaining spades and putting your partner in the lead with alot of information. So I don't have a rule it just depends on where I think strength is. I am the type of player I like taking the last tricks in a hand. I allow my partner to show me what they have and I set up my hand with the info they give me. I then decide part way through if I can set or not and play accordingly.

Yes Missy I do remember that game and yes I was glad to see your partner bid 1 lower then she needed to. I think we might have had you set if she had bid higher but with the lower bid we didn't need the set just had to avoid the bags. Were some good games though. And Galt it does frustrate me to no end when a partner doesn't even look at the score in the last hand. With my live partner Ken I keep track of score but he always takes it on last hand and figures out the options. Being able to see all the possibilities and bidding to allow your partner that opportunity to win no matter how impossible it seems is key. I have had partners bid nil with crappy hands and say gga without even thinking of the other possibilities. I won a Semi Final once in a live tourney with one such opportunity. Score was 466(6) them and 377(8) (pard had a nil set hand 1) us. The bids were 3,4,1 to me. I hadn't looked at my cards because unfortunately this was a tourney with DN allowed but wasn't really planning to bid it but figured keeping the option open and allowing opponents to think it wasn't a bad option. Without looking at my cards I did the math for all possibilities. I knew that my RHO was probably underbidding to try and keep me from DN'ing. I could Nil or DN since bidding wasn't an option. Then I saw the third possibility of giving the opponents 4 bags by bidding 1. I decided to look and was glad I did. I had nil material in 3 suits and the A,10 of clubs. I bid 1 and the hand played out like clockwork. I should also mention that the pair was established and had won the event the year before. The lead by LHO was the J of clubs. I ducked with my 10 took my A and the rest was up to my pard who made his bid perfectly leaving the opponents dumfounded and me with a big grin. Still one of my favorite finishes ever ended the game at 527 - 520. I had seen the bid without looking at my cards and to this day still figure out my bid before the hand begins and then based on the bids adjust as necessary. To many people do not do this and yes Galt it is frustrating.

Todd

Openshut
Active Poster
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:56 am

Post by Openshut » Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:41 am

A Question to you, x MISSY x
Does the win mean as much if we archive it by sympathetic means, as to say , the opponents help you win!

User avatar
x MISSY x
Big Poster
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:00 pm
Contact:

Post by x MISSY x » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:22 pm

depends on how they helped...Did they do something really dumb or did they just overbid? Did they not spend enough time trying to kno the proper bid? Did a fake them out? LOL

I personally would rather win by outsmarting them. A win is a win tho hehe
Image

Openshut
Active Poster
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:56 am

Post by Openshut » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:02 pm

I liked most of what you had to say, but a win is only a win to the out side world, to you it should have meaning. This is a way more complicated argument not fit for this thread, thank you for your timely response.

User avatar
x MISSY x
Big Poster
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:00 pm
Contact:

Post by x MISSY x » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:11 pm

NP....True about winning only matters to the outside world..BUT you gotta admit people chose their pards by their win loss most of the time.

I just like playing and being challanged. Sometimes it works sometimes it dont. Either way as long as i learn and eventually break bad habits im good.
Image

Nickway170g
Active Poster
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:25 am

Lead or not.

Post by Nickway170g » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:48 am

Its quite simple if we lead a low or high spade.

If you want to lead after soms spades are pulled then you lead low for your pard to play a high spade and returne it. A spadereturn is MANDATORY when the big hand is leading spades.

If you think its best that pard lead after some spades are pulled then you lead your KQx for your pard to be in lead af 3 rounds of spades.

But wait, its not always as simple as it looks like. If we have the choise to lead spades when we have only 3 spades in our hand then someone must have broken spades and it wasnt this hand. If the ops broke spades and dindnt lead it, then NOT leading spades was the best for them. That will indicate its best for our team to lead them. Pull spades then. Oposite, if it turned out it was pard that broke spades and didnt return it, it can be best not to lead spades but to feed pard with cuts.
Just some thoughts from me.

Nick.

Post Reply