The Big 5

Do you use the Big 5?

Yes
4
24%
No
9
53%
Only with certian Pards
4
24%
 
Total votes: 17

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x MISSY x
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The Big 5

Post by x MISSY x » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:12 pm

1. Who uses the "BIG 5" when bidding with their partners?

2. Do you bid nil if your pard goes 5, knowing they have the ace or king of spades?

3. Do you bid 4 when holding a 5 bid when not holding the ace of spades?

4. Do you bid 5 when holding the ace and king of spades but no cover in the offsuit?

For the purpose of the poll plez answer number 1 with it.

I had to edit question 4 cuz i meant to say 5....
Last edited by x MISSY x on Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by _S_X_Eian_ » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:47 pm

Well I don't mind throwing myself to the wolves and admitting I use the big 5 bid with certain partners I feel it does have an advantage i many situations and I have no problem with opps knowing I use the big 5. With my partners basically it is an altered version of the big 5 but I use odd good cover and A or K even bad cover and maybe A or K but no guarantee. It comes into effect at the end of a game but can also add some strategy to the playing of spades in a hand with no nil. I use it and have no problem admitting it although I do feel the need to explain it to the opponents when I nil with the lone K of spades because I hate the "cheating" accusations. I believe bidding and playing conventions/agreements are key to succesful partnerships. The more weapons you have in your arsenol the more likely it is you will survive the war.

Todd

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Post by Dust In The Wind » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:57 pm

With an established pard I would use the big 5 and many of the others since this is something you would learn playing with that pard over time. It has been around for a long time and players that know it use it, why wouldn't I.

JUST DUST

PS - Now if a pard with someone I don't know and they bid 5 I would not know that they would know that I know they are bidding a Big 5 and would not go by that not knowing the pard........ <<<==== Yeah I think that says what i want to say..... LOL
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:27 pm

I'm not really understanding this poll.. there are wayyyyy too many variations and possibilites and has no bearing on who my p is or if i know him.
2. Do you bid nil if your pard goes 5, knowing they have the ace or king of spades?
Hell I will go nil if my p bids one if that's what I have.. In fact time n time again chances are I have more chance of making that nil on a 1 bid than I do a 5 bid..so this 5 bid rule thingy is totally off the wall. And if you know they have the ace or king of spades..then well frankly you are cheating ..lol I've bid 5 plenty of times had 7/8 spades but not the boss ones..so 5 does not necessarily mean a nil
3. Do you bid 4 when holding a 5 bid when not holding the ace of spades?
Now if I have a 5 bid why would I bid 4.. what difference does holding Ace spades make.. if like you say you have a 5 bid..well um it's a 5 bid..right?

4. Do you bid 4 when holding the ace and king of spades but no cover in the offsuit?
Again..way too many possibilites here.. yes it's a guaranteed 2 bid.. but um it really depends on the rest of your cards..

Sorry Missy love ya but i'm unsure where you are going with this thread
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Post by x MISSY x » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:53 pm

Ok shell wut i am asking really only matters if you use the 5 rule. I never know which of my pards do or not so sometimes i adjust my bids depending on spade holding.

I will answer my own questions maybe it makes sense. If i bid 5 i am promising my partner that i have the Ace or King of spades.

1. I use the big 5 when playing most of the time.
2. see number 1
3.I will often bid 4 when i dont have the ace or king of spades to prevent my pard from going nil.
4. I wont bid 5 if i dont feel i can cover a nil by my pard. Sooo basically if im holding 6 and bid first i will still bid 4 and hope someobdy overbids n we get a set.

Now correct me if im wrong but players who use the 5 are meerly promising to have ace or king of spades rite?
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Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:01 pm

Right i'm with ya.. but in answer to that no I don't use this rule. I am not familiar with it ..personally I think its a bit of a misnomer.. esp the guaranteeing that you have the Ace or King just cause you bid 5..but that's me.. Only thing I'll guarantee in a game is that momma gonna set yo hiney ;) muhahahaha
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Post by Galt » Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:35 am

PF, it is probably the most common bidding convention used in the game.

I would guess that more advanced players use it than don't. It was developed by 2 guys named Carney and DeNino (courtesy of Joe's book).

If the first pard on the team bids 5, that guarantees the ace or king of spades of both.

It has its advantages and disadvantages, just like most things in life.
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Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:38 am

PF, it is probably the most common bidding convention used in the game.

I would guess that more advanced players use it than don't. It was developed by 2 guys named Carney and DeNino (courtesy of Joe's book)

I play with the as you call them the "advanced players "..not one of my p's is familiar with this concept, nor am I..maybe I've been asleep these past 4 years.
Admittedly everyone works to their own "theories" and what is right for one may not be right for another.
I personally see this as a false bidding system.. Maybe this is why a lot of people in HW play "bags" not spades.. Which again is fine, I can adjust my game to any type.. but the sad thing is this false and underbidding is being done by people who really can't duck bags.. They end up holding the bags losing points which they could have had if they bid their hands. But again each to their own.. I'm more than happy for them to play that way.. it's easy points for me but does tend to make for a dull game at times.
If the first pard on the team bids 5, that guarantees the ace or king of spades of both.
Again this concept of bidding 5 guarantees you have the ace or king is the craziest thing I have ever heard.. Are you honestly trying to tell me that if i'm holding A/K Hearts A/K clubs A diamonds and 2/3/4/5/8/9/10/J Spades that isn't a 5 bid and WAY PLUS? but I should bid um 4!!!!!.. because my p may nil cause I am guaranteeing him I have Ace or K spades..That is absurd.And okay that hand is extreme but there are plenty plenty of times I will bid 5+ and not have boss spades. As you say with life there are advantages and disadvantages.. I agree, same as there are no guarantees.. but i'm certainly not going to waste valuable points underbidding my hand just because I cannot guarantee holding an A/K spades..

:shock:
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Post by _S_X_Eian_ » Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:26 am

Well hopefully you can have an open mind about this flower you don't have to use it but it does work. I use the big 5 but have changed it slightly to and odd/even system. If I have the A or K of spades and have a bid of 4-6 I bid 5. This tells my partner I have the A or K and 4-6 tricks. If they are not going to nil they will adjust their bid accordingly for the possible 4 bid. With my seasoned partners they are away. On a hand like you demonstrated above I would bid 8 or 10 depending on score and such, showing spades length and alot of tricks but no A or K. If I have a similar hand with the A or K I bid 7 or 9 to indicate such. With the odd/even approach it allows you more flexibility and you are usually only adjusting your bid by 1 which alot of players do anyway as you pointed out. The bid is used primarily when I nil bid is needed to give extra information to your partner. If your partner is sitting with a hand like H:2,3,4,5, C:2,3,4,5 D:2,3,4,5 and then the lone Q or K of spades. If my partner bids 5(odd) before me I know I can succesfully nil if they don't bid 5(odd) I know I should bid 1.

As for the whole bag game type of people. Yes they are out there but I don't think that this bidding convention is going to add to this type of game. I have never taken extra bags/ went set primarily because of this convention. I gladly let the opponents know I use this convention as I don't like the "cheating" insinuations.

Now you can use it or not use it and you will still do fine in spades but if something can help you to be even better not sure why someone would dismiss it so easily. You can argue that it is worthless all you want but those who use it know it works those who don't use it don't care so it will fall on dead ears.

Todd

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Post by Galt » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:20 am

PF, you have gotten confused with If A, then B - and if B then A.

The big 5 bid convention does not say the you must bid 5 at any time, what it promises is that if you do bid 5, you have the spades as described above.

If none of the players with whom you play are familiar with the convention, that can mean only the following:

They have never read my book, Joe's book, or Steve's book. Also, they have not read or participated in the numerous discussions of the convention in articles published at the Zone, or the numerous discussions of the convention whcih have taken place in various Spades forums over the years.

I started playing Spades about 9 years ago, and learned of this convention within about two months of that time just by doing a little reading about the game on the Net. I would suggest to you that the players with whom you play may not be as advanced as they or you may think.

I can think of no single bidding issue that has received more public discussion than the Big 5 bid. The bid is so well known, that on may occasions I have seen the following:

An opp will bid 5, his pard will not Nil, and later the 5 bidder will ask his pard why he did not bid Nil given that the first pard bid 5 and the 2nd had a coverable Nil with a high spade. I would imagine that it is true, however, that the bid is known by a lower percentage of players at HW than at some other sites.

Missy even started this thread with no explanation of the bid under, I would imagine, the assumption that it is so commonly discussed and used that such explanation was not needed. I think that I would have done the same.

Personally, I have never understaood the 4 to 6 trick aspect of the rule. If I am using the convention, I make the bid only if I have at least 5 tricks, and I would recommend that anyone using the convention use that approach as well.
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Post by Openshut » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:39 pm

Look, it is cheating! We may as well use hand signals also, more weapons right?

What the Big-5 suggests is no different than taking a peak at your partner’s hand. I think we can agree that would be cheating!

The main issue is that we don't want to think or evaluate, we just want to win! If the win is to mean a thing there should be equal apprehension of losing. But wait, let use the Big-5 so I can bid a shady nil, and be rest assured it is covered.

How much more clear does it need to be? You should not be privy to such information simply from the bid, the play of the hand is where you should discern such things.

The whole argument put forward is nothing more than rationalization and weak at best to sanction cheating. Speaking about the possible pit falls is quite frankly nonsense and is simply an attempt to obscure the issue. There has never been an ethically acceptable way to say partner I may have the Ace or King of spades. Giving this method of cheating a name and calling it a convention is a definite attempt to circumvent good sense and illicit cheating.

When we move out of the realm of generalized interpretation and into specific holdings it is cheating, to suggest others can do it also is still cheating regardless of the label you give it. You do not do something just because others do it also. That doesn't make it any less wrong.

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Post by Galt » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:51 pm

OS, please tell me if any of the following are cheating.

An agreement that one will not bid Nil without being able to duck a 6 at least one time in every suit (this is a convention that is in use).

Telling your pard that you are void or have the queen by playing hi/lo on the first two rounds of a suit.

Lead of king promises queen.

Or, lead of king promises Ace.

n-1.

or any of the other 100 conventions or agreements that one could use.

Any convention can be used by any team at anytime. Thenpeoblem with any convention is that it has tradeoffs. The problem with the Big 5 is that sometimes you just need to bid 5 and you don't have the required elements.

The merits of using the convention are certainly open to discussion or even debate, but to declare it as outright cheating is a stretch.

The bid is used openly at the Grand Prix and other money events. It is used (either sometimes or all times) by a large percentage of the more advanced and more spades community involved players. I think that one would be hardpressed to classify all of these individuals as cheaters.
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Post by Openshut » Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:14 pm

The logic of any honest convention can be proven. Less quantity and more quality please.

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Post by Galt » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:19 pm

Is that an answer to my questions?

If it is, I sure don't understand it.
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Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:02 am

PF, you have gotten confused with If A, then B - and if B then A.
I am not confused about anything.. all I am saying is that I do not promise anything in my hand if I bid 5..and if my partner is expecting this 5 bid rule (which again I express that non of my regular p's do Thank Goodness!) then he is sorely mistaken. I still hold that this rule is a misnomer no matter how widely discussed or used you may feel it is.

I would suggest to you that the players with whom you play may not be as advanced as they or you may think.
Well I will take my chances with them anyday rather than someone employing this 5 bid tactic.. My nics are consistently in the top 25 (not that that means much) Every nic of mine consistently reaches over 1900/2k/2100.. without this tactic..and my partners do the same.. so what does that tell you?
Now you can use it or not use it and you will still do fine in spades but if something can help you to be even better not sure why someone would dismiss it so easily. You can argue that it is worthless all you want but those who use it know it works those who don't use it don't care so it will fall on dead ears.
As I expressed before yes everyone has different styles and tactics.. This would not work for me personally, nor would it work for my partners.. I know this for a fact. As to it being worthless.. to me it is.. to others maybe not.. i'll stick at my own level.
Look, it is cheating! We may as well use hand signals also, more weapons right?

What the Big-5 suggests is no different than taking a peak at your partner’s hand. I think we can agree that would be cheating!
I think that might be a little extreme as to call it cheating.. anyone can pre-arrange a tactic with a partner before a game, but I do see your point perhaps it sails a little close to the wind. It can't be stopped nor helped.

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