The Big 5

Do you use the Big 5?

Yes
4
24%
No
9
53%
Only with certian Pards
4
24%
 
Total votes: 17

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Galt
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Post by Galt » Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:04 pm

Regarding the confusion thing... here is your quote:

"Again this concept of bidding 5 guarantees you have the ace or king is the craziest thing I have ever heard.. Are you honestly trying to tell me that if i'm holding A/K Hearts A/K clubs A diamonds and 2/3/4/5/8/9/10/J Spades that isn't a 5 bid and WAY PLUS? but I should bid um 4!!!!!.."

You have a 9 or 10 bid there. The Big 5 discussion has nothing to do with this type of hand. It has nothing to do with bidding 4 with this type of hand (it is not about bidding 5 or more, it is about bidding 5). You simply are missing the entire point of the discussion.

Regarding misnomer...

The convention is named the "Big 5" bid. That is in fact its name. It doesn't really mean anything beyond that you have Big Spades I would guess.

As far as your question about what the top 25 list and ratings means, all I can say is not much unless I know who they are what the details are.

Your comment led me to doing a quick analysis that I have not done for some time due to how silly the whole think had become.

As of today, the average won/lost record in team games of all players on the top 25 list is 31/25. A 55% win/loss ratio across the supposed most advanced players in HW is kind of a sad comment, and certainly cannot be used to identify an advanced player. I know for a fact that there are some good players in there, and obviously there are some not very good players in there.

We are not discussing cut but team spades.

If it is true that the most advanced players in HW have never heard of one of the most common and well-known spades conventions, (and I actually doubt that that is true), it would be even a sadder comment.
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Post by Joe Andrews » Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:05 pm

Hi "Poisoned Flower"

How are you? I respect that fact that you are another one of the accomplished players with a very high rating (with multiple nics).

There are times that I wish people would use their first names in this Forum, or first name / last initial. There seems to be such a plethora of nic names. I have always used my real name..... :lol:

Now, here is the point which has beeen made several posts ago, and reinforced by Galt and SX_Ian et al.

There is no rule or law or restriction on any site which prohibits the use of conventions. And the "Big 5" has been around for almost TEN years, documented in books and numerous articles, and is used by hundreds, if not thousands of players. It is not cheating.

And we come around to the fact the Spades is primarily an internet card game (very few "live" events out there, you know)..... For the umpteeth time, until there is a National Spades Organization a la Bridge, Cribbage, Gin Rummy, etc., players can apply whatever bidding or carding agreements they wish.

The only other choices are to ban all Conventions, or require that a Team using a Convention "alert" the opponents. (In the case of the Big 5 bid, they might say "Excuse me, we are using the Big 5 bid, and it promises the A or K whenver we use it". :lol: )

And another alerting example - Re " Nil Reverse Signals" We would have to say, "Excuse me - We are using Nil Reverse Signals, and when I am in Nil and partner leads two successive high cards in the same off suit, and I play a low card, then a high card in that suit, I am telling him that I am safe in that suit".

Finally, I would sugest that you come out to one of the "live" Spades events. Your 1800 - 2K + Rating when matched with an equally competent partner would make you a formidable team, indeed!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by Openshut » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:38 am

Big-5 Tells your partner hey I have cover for your Queen and if you have the king no problem either. It is cheating!

By the way it would go under table talk a clear rule and violation!

So much for no rule right, what a joke.

Let's make a convention called table gestures while we are at it.
We can pause, scratch, bid fast, suggest Gln, Gla, slight stall, do some mental calculations and do a stare in space look.

The simple point is folks the Big-5 is a cheating tool nothing more nothing less, BECAUSE IT INDICATES A SPECIFIC HOLDING. It is simply telling your partner ahead of time to try a risky nil. C H E A T I N G ! ! !

There is no other convention like this; therefore their is no precedence. Do not confuse the issue to suggest it is actually a convention, its not. Furthermore, since their is no governing body, the ETHICAL PLAYER should state they use Big-5.

Then when players voice a sturdy "not at my table", there will be no confusion in the issue!

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Post by Dust In The Wind » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:54 am

/me Blinks and rubs his left eye because he has a piece of Dust in his eye..... nope doesn't mean I have the Ace of Spades but I might have.

If north bids 2, east bids 1 and south bids 3 and I bid 12 does that tell you that N&S is in trouble and I'm cheating by raising the bid to 16 or the fact that each of them bid on their aces and kings and I have 13 spades. By my bid I tell my pard (and anyone else at the table) I have 13 - 1 for my pards bid. I just told my pard that I have all 13, is this cheating?

Unwritten rules, conventions, special plays have been an accepted way of playing a number of games and unless their is a specific rule against such play it is fair game. If in the game of spades the score is 468 - 422 and they have bid 5 total (if they bidded 4 we could still win with a 9 bid), pard bids 3 and I bid 1 and showing my pard we are going for the bags by my bid is that cheating? Or just the opposite by bidding 9 signifying going for the set? If I lead the King of hearts telling my pard I have either the queen or the ace to follow is this cheating?

Maybe we shouldn't see the cards as they are played OR what other cards have been played by the other players so no one will know anything and a judge rules the winner of the hand. If your not "READING" your pard as far a bid goes or as the cards are played (chatting in the lobby instead) your not going to do as well as you could.......... and as Mr. Galt would say there "your lossing more games than you should"

JUST DUST

PS - Yes I have read John's book and the best thing I picked up from it is the bidding process. I used to be a straight out bid my hand kind of guy and let the chips/cards fall where they will. Yes I have improved my game there. Playing your cards and reading your pard accurately is something that most people have to develope over time and using conventions helps speed that process along. If all players used those same conventions not only would they be telling each other the play but also the oppt. they same so no disadvantage to either side, HOWEVER, if you develope your own variation of the same (become one with pard) then you will have an advantage. I use deception as a tactic and will change the way I play so you can;t read me like a book.... oh he bid 2, that means Dust is..........
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Post by Openshut » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:06 am

Ashes to ashes....dust to dust....it's time to let this filibuster rust...

Please refocus and address the point....no other convention indicates a specific holding where Big-5 does.

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Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:31 am

Galt..
As far as your question about what the top 25 list and ratings means, all I can say is not much unless I know who they are what the details are.
I'm sorry I must have been asleep when I asked a question regarding the top 25. I have asked no questions regarding the Top 25. I don't need to lol. What was the supposed question?


As of today, the average won/lost record in team games of all players on the top 25 list is 31/25. A 55% win/loss ratio across the supposed most advanced players in HW is kind of a sad comment, and certainly cannot be used to identify an advanced player. I know for a fact that there are some good players in there, and obviously there are some not very good players in there.
You may be correct on this , frankly I have neither the time, inclination nor patience to go through the whole Top 25 and check win/loss ratio.
I currently have 3 nics in the top 25. The lowest being a 60% win/loss ratio the highest being 82% win/loss ratio and the third 64% (this is not including cut games just partner games if you include my cut it takes them on average much higher) As to what exactly makes an advanced player.. well you tell me?

We are not discussing cut but team spades.
I never mentioned cut, you have just done. Cut has nothing to do with this.

If it is true that the most advanced players in HW have never heard of one of the most common and well-known spades conventions, (and I actually doubt that that is true), it would be even a sadder comment.
It's true lol

Hi "Poisoned Flower"

How are you? I respect that fact that you are another one of the accomplished players with a very high rating (with multiple nics).

There are times that I wish people would use their first names in this Forum, or first name / last initial. There seems to be such a plethora of nic names. I have always used my real name
I'm extremely well known in HW at certain levels anyway.. :lol:
But FYI my name is Shelley or did you mean my HW nics?
Finally, I would sugest that you come out to one of the "live" Spades events. Your 1800 - 2K + Rating when matched with an equally competent partner would make you a formidable team, indeed!!!!
I went to the live tourney in NC a few years back, being in Spain sadly does not make it so easy for me to just hop along at anytime but i'm sure I will do another in time. But I find the attempted backwards dig amusing so tyvm.
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Post by Voo » Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:41 am

First & foremost I do not have Anytime to read books on how to play cards... raising 4 kids, running a farm, business, and upkeep of home - honestly if I am playing something is neglected (basics of laundry goes unfolded) Inventory goes into back order etc - I often work in multiple windows while playing Just so I can manage fun and business.

I am a do'er hands on sort of person - falling and getting up has been my best teacher, this is in everything - ie. - I have never read a book on graphics design, web design, flash design - yet i freelance for many companies - digital media... ~ same goes for cooking, gardening, parenting, relationships, homeschooling anything really- immerse myself in my work and do it with a passion for success as a result failure rarely meets me @ the door. Cards Is No Different - relax and have fun comes before any manual/written rules (for me anyway) I consider myself a better then average card player -

I follow no guidelines/pre-written bylaws/ and hey Im a pretty damn good player basic rules of bidding to win and nil by necessity or only when i am actually nil usually gets the job done.

to sum it up -

If I bid 5 - this means I have 5 (maybe 6 depending on position of bids and score) - if you decide to nil - I hope you are not counting on me having ace/king - because you may well be very disapointed. :wink:

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Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:41 am

If I bid 5 - this means I have 5 (maybe 6 depending on position of bids and score) - if you decide to nil - I hope you are not counting on me having ace/king - because you may well be very disapointed.
I'm never disappointed in your playing girlie. :lol:
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Post by Galt » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:57 am

"Well I will take my chances with them anyday rather than someone employing this 5 bid tactic.. My nics are consistently in the top 25 (not that that means much) Every nic of mine consistently reaches over 1900/2k/2100.. without this tactic..and my partners do the same.. (so your pards are also on the top 25 list) so what does that tell you?"

You mention that your nics are in the top 25, and so are your pards, with the implication being that that proves that the players with whom you play are advanced players (that issue was the genesis of the above comment). You then asked me what that tells me. THis seems like a question to me.

So I will say it again, just because you find or pard some players who have high ratings and their names are on the HW top 25 list does necessarily mean that they are advanced players. Further, there is not one advanced player in the Spading community, by definition, who is unaware of the Big 5 bidding convention. It would be impossible to be one and be the other at the same time.

As Joe said, there are likely thousands of players who use the convention.

It would be like someone claiming that somebody is an advanced Bridge player, but that that person is unaware of Blackwood, Jacoby, or Stayman conventions.

One of the most important aspects of being an advanced player is knowing about the game that one plays... knowing how other teams play, and how your lobby pards might play... knowing innovative techniques and time honored techniques... reading forums like the recently inactive Expert Spades forum and participating in the analysis and discussion there... reading articles by Jay Tomlinson or Joe and others about all issues of the game including things like the Big 5 bid.

If you pick 100 people at random on the street and send them all as a class to medical school, one will graduate first in his class. It does not necessarily mean that you would pick that guy or woman to do you brain surgery.
Last edited by Galt on Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:22 am

"Well I will take my chances with them anyday rather than someone employing this 5 bid tactic.. My nics are consistently in the top 25 (not that that means much) Every nic of mine consistently reaches over 1900/2k/2100.. without this tactic..and my partners do the same.. (so your pards are also on the top 25 list) so what does that tell you?"
You are confusing the issue of top 25 with the fact that my partners are advanced players who do consistently achieve a number of high ranking nics (not necessarily on the top 25 as yes there are a lot of cut players there and I am referring to partner games). The question of what does that tell you was referring to the fact that (despite what you may think) I know my partners are advanced players and yes SHOCK HORROR do not use this tactic.
(Voo being a prime example...others I can mention include Shack (winner of a number of live tournies) Desi/Nick (ditto) Ranger ..Kyle and I could go on and on)
Further, there is not one advanced player in the Spading community, by definition, who is unaware of the Big 5 bidding convention. It would be impossible to be one and be the other at the same time.
You can say it til you are blue in the face...but still you do not define what makes an advanced player.. perhaps because you cannot. Maybe I cannot.. but I consider my p's advanced from a personal point of view. As I say I will take being considered a non advanced player by you and an advanced player by my partners any day. My game speaks for itself not my words on here.
If you pick 100 people at random on the street and send them all as a class to medical school, one will graduate first in his class. It does not necessarily mean that you would pick that guy or woman to do you brain surgery.
I think as a simile this is a little far fetched although If i'm having to have a random person perform brain surgery with a choice only of these 100 random people.. then yeah i'll take the guy who graduated first lol.. i'm hardly gonna pick the class dummy..would anyone?
Last edited by p0is0ned_fl0wer on Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Galt
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Post by Galt » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:58 am

PF, all that I can suggest is that you read more carefully.

At no time have I said that to be an advanced player one must use the Big 5 bid (I did say that my guess would be that the majority of advanced players use it, and I know many who don't). What I did say further, and it is true, is that it is impossible to be an advanced player and have never heard of the convention. That would require being almost totally insulated from the majority of the Spading population, anything ever written or discussed (and even argued) about the game, and common practices and playing techniques.

Sometimes I will find someone who says that he or she is an advanced player, and before I pard them I will ask if they use the high/low convention. More often than not, I will get the online equivalent of a blank stare. There is no possible way to be an advanced Spader and be unaware of the high/low convention.
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Post by x MISSY x » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:29 pm

I still dont see how this is cheating?? Is it any different then parding the same player over and over again and at some point discussing your playing? Its like saying p if you lead me spades I will always play my highest and return spades. Do people not discuss games they play after they play them?

Ive actually seen this used in a live tourney...LOL it happened to be Todd who used it, but thats not really important. We were mid game and his bid was 4 and his pard went nil. He had the queen of spades. We busted his nil. After the hand was over Todd said ummm P did i bid 5? Its a useful tool if anything. Its no more cheating then using signals while playing on wheither you want to set or bag your opponents.
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Post by Voo » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:46 pm

actually I dont discuss my style of playing w.anyone nor the actual game afterwards more so I never had the feeling of needing too :shock: Most people That I play with know when they make a mistake or can see where one of us could of played it differently - I have Never felt it needed to be pointed out or discussed. :wink:

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Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:23 pm

Me either.. nor will I ever.. I don't feel the need to discuss a hand prior or even after. I won't tell my partner how I am going to play nor am I going to lay down rules.. even if they are dictated in a few books ..or are worldwide convention techniques (they don't quite reach here it seems)

As to it being cheating, I would not call it out and out cheating but as I did say before it does sail close to the wind...but then so many of these preset rules could be classed as that.

Spades is about applying common sense..the common sense my partners have to me makes them "advanced" players. They think out of the box and do whatever it takes to win. There's only one rule in our games and that's there are no rules!
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Post by Openshut » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:50 pm

I have noticed every one is trying to skate around the issue. If you tell your partner what value cards you may have in the bidding process, it is cheating. It is called table talk.

What we may forget is that you do not need to cheat 24/7 to be cheaters. Nonetheless all it takes is that right opportunity to say I can cover your lone King of spades partner.

Just how many times should one cheat for it to be unacceptable!

Perhaps it is because neither of you can argue against this simple point; so you try to ignore it and hope to convince others it's not cheating.

Cheaters have always been looking for newer and more advanced methods of cheating that can blend seamlessly in their environment.

The key point in favor of this line of thinking is that this is a convention not restricted by any rule. Why are you over looking the obvious when you reveal a specific card it is TABLE TALK. It is a clear rule. Face the truth it is cheating!

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