The Big 5

Do you use the Big 5?

Yes
4
24%
No
9
53%
Only with certian Pards
4
24%
 
Total votes: 17

HW_HollywierdRD
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Post by HW_HollywierdRD » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:36 pm

Ok I have read most of this, scanned some of it.

First off I will say this, without naming names, I have read spades books, one from a member of HW and I wouldn’t play the way the book says to play 75% of the time. A few other books I have read make me walk away scratching my head. This “5 bid ruleâ€

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Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:41 pm

I have noticed every one is trying to skate around the issue. If you tell your partner what value cards you may have in the bidding process, it is cheating. It is called table talk.
I personally am not skating round the issue here nor ignoring you openshut.
To an extent I agree with you but after all Mr Andrews and Mr Strichman say this is a common and widely accepted rule (just not with me ::grins::) What can be done about that? Not a lot.. Unless it is directly said at the table or on the table before the game then I cannot class it as directly cheating. I have no clue if when my opponents sit if they have pre-arranged game tactics, whether its this 5 bid rule or something different, and if they do then like I say there is nothing I can doabout it. All I can offer is my own personal experience that I never discuss my play or the way I will play with my partner either before during or after. I have no agreed game plan and I take each game as it comes and adjust my play accordingly to my partner, my opponents and the dealer, who are all important contributing factors.
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Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:45 pm

If you count cards you do not need a spade book and a 5 bid rule. The 5 bid rule is one of the silliest things I have ever read. The fact some think it’s the gospel according the Luke makes me giggle.
Indeed! That's all I can say.
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Galt
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Post by Galt » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:35 pm

OS, it has been a long time since I played Bridge, but there were bids which told your partner very specific things about your hand.

A preemptive 3 bid indicated 7 cards in the suit, roman blackwood would tell your partner exactly which aces you held in your hand.... etc.

These and numerous other bids give extremely specific information about a hand in bridge.

I'm not really sure why it is any different... and maybe it isn't if all Bridge players are cheaters.
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Post by Razler » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:17 am

since i don't play with reg partner, i never use it.

but i do see the advantages, and disavantages.
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Post by Openshut » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:32 am

Hmmm that sounds like a joke to me Galt, so here is mine. When Bridge gets advanced enough to use multiple competing bids as in Spades you may have a point. It does not take much effort to say something silly. :)

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Post by Vidurr » Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:13 am

If you tell your partner what value cards you may have in the bidding process, it is cheating. It is called table talk.
It’s been noted previously that there is no National Governing Body of Spades. Each site has their own set of rules. Since we are playing at HW; we must assume HW’s Site Rules apply. HW’s Site Rules contains one specific reference to cheating (assuming we’re not throwing games):

14. You will not participate in Table Talking. (That is discussing your cards with a partner at the table, Privately communicating with your partner your hand, or telling how to play or defend a hand via any Instant Messenger Software, or by telephone as this is considered cheating. Please keep all specific card based comments to yourself until the hand/game is complete.

If two players decide in advance to use “conventionsâ€

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Galt
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Post by Galt » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:15 am

Raz, you are exactly correct. There are advantages and disadvantages.
One of disadvantages is when you, on occasion, run across opps who are ignorant of the bid. It can lead to false assumptions about under the table communication, which then leads to delays, explanations, references to websites, etc.

Vid, just a comment on the private aspect. Being that the bid is made openly, I am not sure that it could be considered private communication.

Moreso, being that the Big 5 bid is used by so many players, I just sort of assume that the bidder has the Ace and/or King unless I have proof otherwise.

Of course, another possible assumption is that they are just being silly old players... lol.
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Post by x MISSY x » Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:06 am

LOL geesh when i started this thread i dint expect such a debate.

I gotta say I will bid nil with the lone king of sp if my pard goes 5, but i dont think ive ever discussed it with a pard. Sooo does that still count as cheating?

I had a p the other day go 5 and i went nil after another player went nil. Ummm my p had the ace, chose to not play it and i was set. OOOPSIEEE. When saying I use the Big 5 that does not mean i discuss any arrangements with partners. I do however sometimes discuss previous played games when i see that me and my pard are not on the same page thruout the game.
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Bridge....

Post by Joe Andrews » Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:41 am

The game of Bridge (created in 1904 / 1905) does feature the use of Conventions. Because the ACBL is the governing body of Bridge, there is a specific protocol regarding this matter.

Firstly, all players in a "live" Duplicate Bridge tournament ("Duplicate" is the format for ACBL events), are required to complete a Convention card.
Thus, the opponents are aware of all of the applications (systems, carding signals, bidding conventions) which they are competing against.
Now... most of the Conventions have been around for so long (decades), they have become Standard, and are not alertable. (examples - Blackwood, Stayman, Pre-emptive bids, weak 2 bids, etc.) Charles Goren, the great Bridge pioneeer, created a bidding system called "Standard American". and it was used for years. As a matter of fact. most players would ask "Are you using the Goren System" when sitting down for a Bridge game.

And.... Bridge is predominately a "live" game, although it has a nice following on the Internet. Spades is the opposite, with 99% of its players in the on line community.

As time went by in the Bridge world, new systems were developed, and they were variations on the Standard, as well as completely new approaches. The Italian Blue Team of the 1960's started this new movement. Then came the British ACOL system, The Big Club System, Key Card Blackwood, some of the Transfer Bids, and so forth. Rusinow leads were added. And on it went. Thus, it became necessary to "alert" the opponents when your side was using one of these new fangled "gadgets". In time, these applications will become standard.

So much for Bridge. It may be in the same family as Spades; the difference is almost like night and day! :lol:

Spades is many years away from a similar Convention and Alerting protocol.

Convention cards for players? Maybe, some day....

The Big 5 bid is one of the relatively few Conventions in the game of Spades. It is certainly one of the oldest, and closest to being designated a "Standard" application.

It is NOT cheating, certainly, not on a par with using the telephone, or IM's, or ICQ's or playing with two computers, etc. And it seems to be acceptable in HW, as far as the HW rules concerning cheating.

And.. finally, those want to use Big 5 will use it. In my nice years of directing "live" events, I have seen more and more Big 5 advocates, and so far, only one Team has complained about the Big 5. ( It was Atlanta, 2002, and the hand is so famous that it was featured in one of my Zone columns.)

Carry on.. Let the debate continue!

Great stuff and great theatre!

Happy Holidays!

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Post by Openshut » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:01 pm

It is cheating for the simple reason it states direct cards, giving your partner unwarranted confidence to do a bad nil. If you want to risk a bad nil, its nice to know if your partner has your cover. Does the honest player need such information? A resolute no shall be the response!

Even if we could mutually remove the term cheating, it still strikes too close, it still would be disgraceful for any ethical player to use it.

This is a place for clear reasoning and only reasoning.

The value of the term Big-5 is to communicate in an improper way that you have specific card/s.

It is a clever cheating device, plain and simple.
There are things that have been around from the dawn of man and society, look them up see if you find them worthy of practice.

There is a gem I would like to drop.
Some will burn in a fire because they refuse to say that it is hot!

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Post by p0is0ned_fl0wer » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:58 pm

I think openshut rocks.. :twisted:
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Post by Galt » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:30 pm

OS, I still have not recieved an answer, or at least I don't think that I have, to some of my questions.

Do you think that the following common convention is cheating...

An agreement with pard that one will not bid Nil without being able to duck a 6 in any suit?

Indepenmdent of the fact that you consider Bridge and Spades to apparently have nothing to do with one another, do you think that the following is cheating...

Indicating to my pard that I have the Club Ace and the Heart Ace, and he then bids 6 No Trump, a bid which he could not make if he did not have the information that I supplied him with my bid?

I am not looking for sarcastic or convlouted answers. Simple yes or no will do.
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:36 pm

/me OGRE cheats uses ESP and mirrors behind the opt.



JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Joe Andrews
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The Atlanta Hand

Post by Joe Andrews » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:04 pm

The Great Debate rages on. Is the Big 5 bid a form of cheating? Is it an acceptable convention?

Well, let's look at exhibit "A" as in Atlanta, 2002 - a "live" Spades event.
(not Grand Prix, but Spades Parties.com, a now defunct organization)

The score was close with both teams in the low 360's.

North held this collection:

Spades - A J 10 9 Hearts A K 9; Diamonds - K 10 8 7 Clubs - 5 2

South held this hand:

Spades - K 2; Hearts - Q 7 5 3 2; Diamonds - Q 6 5 2 Clubs - 4 3

West was the dealer, and bid 3. North bid 5 ("the Big 5"), promising the A or K of spades, and 4 - 6 tricks. East bid 3, and South, re-assured that his partner had the Ace of spades, came in with Nil. North (on lead) started with the Ace of hearts, and South dropped the deuce. The King of hearts caught two middle cards from the E / W, and South's seven. These reverse discards were the "Nil reverse" signal to alert North to discontinue the heart suit. The King of diamonds was the only logical continuation. East rose with the Ace, dropping South's Queen. A middle club was next, as South played his fourspot, and West rose with the Ace, and North tossed the five. Another diamond was won by East's Jack, and another low club was played. Out came the three from South, and up came West's King, as North tossed his deuce ( his high - low on the first two leads of clubs promised exactly two clubs. ).

When East ruffed the third round of diamonds, he tried the six of clubs. South knew his partner was out of clubs, and TRUMPED with the spade King. West was flabbergasted, as he followed with his last club, and North overtook with the Big Kahuna - the Ace of spades!

Now the fur really flew! First, the profanities came. Then....Accusations of cheating resonated around the room, down the hallway, and all the way to the bar! I was on the other side of the room, and the screaming was loud, shrill, and clear. Questions by the E/W team were asked.

To the South player - How did you know that your partner was void in clubs on the third round of that suit?

To the North player - Why did you stop playing the heart suit after the second round?

To the South player - Why did you cut the third lift in clubs with the King of trump? (now that play was a bit flamboyant, to say the least)

To the South player - How did you know your partner had the Ace of trump?

The N/S team tried to explain the finer points of their partnership technique, and muttered something about "The Big 5, Nil Reverse, and Hi-Low discards".

More calls of cheating ensued. The game was abandoned, as E/W refused to play the hand out. (N/S would have won anyway).

The Host ruled that N/S did nothing wrong, and were awarded the win.

More grumbling, hissing, and snarling by the E/W team.

If you were on a jury, would you have convicted the N/S Team of cheating? - Or would you have congratulated them for using a little of Bridge technique?

Well.......?
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