The Big 5

Do you use the Big 5?

Yes
4
24%
No
9
53%
Only with certian Pards
4
24%
 
Total votes: 17

Openshut
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Post by Openshut » Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:18 am

Simply sounds like lack of ethics to me

TrashCanCharlie
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IMPLICIT AGREEMENT

Post by TrashCanCharlie » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:19 am

HI ALL...............busy but willing to add my quarter to this raging battle...........

A.........We are discussing quite a few issues and making it worse by adding more things than necessary here.

B. In any game, partnership agreements, whether "Explicit, or Implicit" that are used without the opps having common info that the opps used said conventional theory is in fact "Cheating."

C. Do we have a "Spades Governing Body"? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

D. Until we do have one.......................it's the wild wild west folks, how can you even discuss it without some panel, force, government, that decides what conventions are acceptable and which ones must be alerted, whether a table prealert is necessary, whether the use of a convention card, or some other form or allowing the opps the info should be used.

E. Until some body steps forward, until hardwood lists a chart, list a flight, list a government and publishes some form, of rules, then, we as players are free to choose ethical plays, behaviors, and resolve these issues amiably.

F. Soooooooooooooooooo OPENSHUT? Let me say this..........YOU ARE RIGHT in what you preach and horribly wrong as well.............

G. I know you well enough to know that you examine, discuss, weigh, every trick played, you have discussed, analyzed, gone over plays, discerned proper cards that should be played, bids that should have been bid, etc, etc, etc, with your reg pards.............andddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd furthermore I know you have not spent hours, weeks, or months doing this OPEN, instead, you have spent years with some partners in these discussions and forums...........

H. Guess what folks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we have just educated a ton of others about a convention they might not have had info about.................Now OPEN................guess what happens when you have these massive discussions with reg partners?????????????????//


IMPLICITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT UNDERSTANDINGS form the very first time we pard a new partner...............................by the second game we have formed IMPLICIT agreement based on info garnered in a previous game and or previous gamesssssssssssssssssssssssss...

We know by implicit agreement that our partner always leads king from ace king,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we are not alerting it, nor have we discussed it with our opps, we are leading fifth best, not fourth, we lead low from three rags instead or top, etc, etc etc...............I note my pard does it so I do not even discuss it, by game five I do not even need to fill anything out and or discuss ............and Id say the majority of Hardwood does the same.

These agreements that we form via several games are called "IMPLICIT!"

Guess what? OPENSHUT? These also should be alerted because the freaking OPPS have the right to also know about the ten freaking years you spent with your reg pard designing your playsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss and modification during certain bids, actions, areas, times, element, tempo, etc, etfc, etc that we pick up on when parding someone for six months.


These things OPEN would also be necessary to alert and would be also included on any convention card that SAID governing body would desiign.

Since we do not have a body, since nobody is really raising the issue loud enough, we do the best we can.......................lately Open, have you had anyone bust your balls for always leading the ACE and not the KING from ACE/KIng, have you PRE-ALERTED your opps that you used this "LEAD Convention?" or are more common conventions beyond your need of scrutinizations?

Yes, a need for a body exists, a need for a Chart, listing accepted conventions by said body is also needed..............without such a body and such a chart, anyone can design super conventions,,,,,,,,,,,,,and I do mean some class act conventional agreementsssssssssssssssssss.

A governing body would decide the merit of such a convention, publicize it and allow others to also weigh it befor approving it for tourney play.

Form such an org, allow the org to make a few needed changes in the game, make the use of conventional agreements something that hardwood used via the form of a convention card format in some window and also have alerting allowed via some button.

Now folks, we have five less pages of arguing and some happy players instead.

Sooooooooooooooooooooooo to recap,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,all of you are wrong and right with Joe being the closest to being right.............

Regards,
PoolHallFlunky/JayTomlinson

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Post by Openshut » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:22 am

Wonderfully said but you did not tackle the issue at all, a nice dance and prance. Who cares if there is no Governing Body, there is always ETHICS.
And quite frankly I do not need a convention card. In light of the Convention Cards you suggested.

Here goes my convention card:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMON SENSE, SENSE, LOGIC, STRONG LOGIC.

CONVOLVE THE RULES AND THE LOGIC TO CREATE HIGHER ORDER RULES AND LOGIC.

FOLLOW BASIC CONCEPTS.

FOLLOW STRATEGIC CONCEPTS.

FOLLOW PARD'S CLUES.

TRACK THE COUNT CARDS.

COMPARE POWER RATIOS, COUNT CARDS TO BID, ESTIMATE SPADE HOLDINGS.

OBSERVE CARD MECHANICS.

OBSERVE PLAY MECHANICS.

OBSERVE END CONDITIONS.

PUSH THE LIMITS OF THE RULE SET, THE RULES/GUIDLINES WHERE MADE TO BE BROKEN.

DO THE MATH, THE BIDS AND SCORE IS YOUR GUIDE.

FAILING TO FOLLOW ANY RULES GUIDELINES OR CLUES WILL RESULT IN CONTRADICTORY UNDERSTANDING.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those 13 points cover all 5.34 x 1 000 000 000 000 hands of the game!

We do not need silly gimmicks nor lack of ethics to cloud the issue!

The last thing this game needs is less thinking, this is exactly why Big-5 is appalling, it circumvents deduction, therefore its is just as good as a peek. Hence it is cheating!

SIMPLE LOGICAL ABSOLUTE!
Last edited by Openshut on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dust In The Wind » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:35 am

Like I said before I CHEAT.... use ESP and mirrors behind ya!!!!


THERE!!!

LOL

JUST DUST

PS - LOL

PS - From now on cards will be played as they are dealt, in the order they are dealt so no one can cheat...... it sort of resembles that game called WAR where high card wins, if you play a card out of suit there will be a penalty and you will bid without looking at your cards so we can still call it spades. There now that that's solved.... think I'll go play some hearts and P&P so I can be called a cheater over there..... and highman at that.
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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re

Post by TrashCanCharlie » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:17 am

ok open here goes once again so that even you can get it...............


A..............You raise an alarm here about the big 5? Is it cheating to use said convention without telling the opps? Yes or No? I say "I agree with you!" It is "Cheating" to use ANY INFORmation you and your partner POSSESS that the OPPS are NOT PRIVY too is in fact a form of cheating....................but I also said OPEN that in fact you Bust you OWN chops when you raise the flag!!!!

Why? Because I know YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU, I know your ability, I know how you create debates, discuss hands etc etc..............Guess what OPEN?? When you do these things with REGULAR pards as well as when you partner ANYONE more than ONE TIME........................IMPLICIT PARTNAERSHIP agreements are formed...........

No need exists to discuss what we lead because we have parded someone long enough to KNOW what they useeeeeeeeeeeeeee, however, do the opps KNOW WHAT we know about how our partner bids and or LEADA? does it matter whether it is the big Five or whether is as simple as knowing partner never ever ever bids as much as five unless holding five spades, or partner always leads the queen when he holds the ACEKINGQUEEN..................as idiotic as it may or may not be, we still form implicit understandings that the opps do not have info about.........

So OPEN< what have I failed to address here? I agree with you.............using the big five without telling the opps is in fact cheating........however, nothing is in place to govern it, or even refute the technical ability of the conventional value, to allow or not allow it during tourney play and or club level play...............so open, what I am trying to say is.......................YOU YOURSELF CHEATS LMAOOOOOOOOOOO

By this I mean, YOU ARE GUILTY YOURSELF of using info that the opps do not have. in other words, HOW CAN YOU ARGUE ABOUT ONE CONVENTION when many exist, and you yourself use them without telling the opps, quite often you do not even know your pard well enough to talk to them but you still have info and also have formed agreement via play and without the first word uttered.............as you mentioned, let the play of the cards tell us.................

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BUT they do OPEN, they tell us quite often exactly what PARD does in given situations, givben bids, defense, etc, after two or three games, even without discussion I have formed implicit understandings that my opps should also be privy to .............

So pal, WE ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL CHEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you want to be truly ethical then get a plan going, form that org, get you a card format where it must be filled before play begins in areas where players give a rats ass about conventions...............now we can use this forum to discusss the new conventional theory and where it will be listedf at on the new convention card...............

Jay

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Post by TrashCanCharlie » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:32 am

So would you rather sit and tell me before each game just what you are your regular pard discuss, what methodology you use, and spend days before the first card is playec going into all the finer play, lead, defenses that are not common to all and ones that you and YOUR pard have discussed previously for hours and hours?

YES, that is also cheating when I too do not have those tapes lol and the hours of discussion you had with your regsssssssssssssss..........
Soooooooooooooooooooooo, if you want ACTIVE ETHICS practiced,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,then BY GOD FORM an ORGANIZATION that decides what conventional agreement is accepted and have said org form a simple universal card that is something the whole spades populus knows and wallah, and or use some card/button alert format at the tables..............

jay

OR sit for days and days and tell me tooooooooooooooooo what you and your pard have discussed so we can be ethical lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

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Post by Openshut » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:38 am

Nice try Jay. How about you get back to the basics, where the root of the issue is.

TABLE TALK IN THE BID PROCESS.
WE ARE NOT TO DISCUSSING WHAT CARDS WE MAY HOLD.
BIG-5 ATTEMPTS TO CIRCUMVENT THE CLEAR RULE ON TABLE TALK BY CONSTRUING THE INFORMATION ON DEFINITE CARDS HELD WITHIN A BID PLACED OF 5. THIS IS A CLEAR ETHICAL VIOLATION!!!
SAME HOLDS FOR ANY OTHER INCARNATION OF THE BIG-5.

It is rather weak to suggest that because no one is watching it is not cheating. We can clearly see that there is a real gray line here. One needs no more than a good ethical foundation to make the call against the Big-5.

THIS IS WHERE THE ISSUE IS.

Let us see some reasonable points now.

All of your above conjecture was nonsensical as it becomes irrelevant by the simple fact that what I just said was play the game the right way! To be quite frank, you should have no way to confuse the point, If you are to try to act on my statements; you must also accept it as fact, that it is by definition the game in its entirety.

The points I listed contains every point that can ever be developed for the game! yet you would try to find a way to twist all that can be ever learnt?

To reduce your argument to its nuts and bolts, you are saying I need to teach others how to play. So that they can understand. Wrong there are the Rules you go and learn how to play!

The magic of the game lies in having superior information handling and gather systems. Cheaters on the other hand want to create clearer systems; Like betting on a sure thing!!!!!!!!!


P.S.

OOH Yeah before I forget, I do not know why you are against me on this issue because I know for a fact you are personally against the Big-5 for your self.

So there are only 2 immediate conclusions, DEVILS ADVOCATE.
Well I don't know how the state the other EUPHEMISTICALLY, so use your imagination.

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Post by Dust In The Wind » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:53 am

Boy I feel a lock coming down on this one.... it should be non-personal, I understand the opposition and have agreed not to agree. I will play the game as I see fit whether or not someone see's it as unethical or not as long as there is no WRITTEN rule against it or not allowed to do it by the software of the program.

I don't use a regular pard so you will have me at a disadvantage until the 2nd game.

I was trying to lighten it up with some humor thrown in there and it is acceptable to make a point without smashing someone into the ground. There are a lot of conventions and to say one is cheating and another is not is not above board with ANY 2 pards that play game after game for a length of time determined by their ability to learn each others moves sort of like DANCE partners. That in itself is an unfair advantage over 2 individual players that are very good at the game but have never partnered. So is that cheating...... my answer is NO.

If the 2 players that don't pard together but are well aware of the conventions (just as the 2 that have partnered a long time) available use them to give them some common ground to even the playing field and you say this is cheating.... I will disagree..... and say NO this also is not cheating.

In any game whether it is football, cards, life you use what you have to your advantage to win as long as it is within the written rules of the game and if you go outside those rules you take the chance that you will pay the price if caught. I will go by the written rules and what makes sense and will use everything I know to turn the tables in my favor. If you don't do the same then your sitting at the wrong table!

JUST DUST

PS - Too bad this has turned in a direction that may cause it to be locked, because I have enjoyed seeing other points of view until they become personal attacks.
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Post by Vidurr » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:38 am

I remember reading posts in the past about the silliness of even playing at HW.

Now we have some of those same players and posters as regulars in HW and HW’s Forum.

What changed everybody’s mind?

In terms of playing at HW, I can only assume it’s the fooms, medieval characters and abundance of cut and pass 2 games that have attracted such an illustrious group. :lol:

In regards to the HW Forum, it appears to be the only ACTIVE spades forum. There really isn't another ACTIVE spades forum to even have a spades discussion.

It’s amazing how things have come full circle.

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Post by Galt » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:05 am

One of the things that I like about Spades is that any partnership can come up with any convention(s) that it can think of, and those partnerships that come up with the best ones, over time, everything else being equal, will come out ahead.

This certainly makes for an uneven playing feild in pickup or lobby games, and there is not much that can be done about that.

Nobody, however, is forced to play either rated, tournament, or live events. Whenever I play any of the above, whether I know the ops or not, I assume that they may be using one or many agreements of which I have no knowledge, and more power to em.

Spades is a lot like Bridge in many respects, and different in many others. One of the differences is in degree of structure. Bridge is about as structured as a card game can be, and Spades is pretty much at the other end of the scale.

Therefore, use of something like high/low (is that alerted in Bridge), which is a standard cardplay technique, I guess might or would be considered cheating in Spades by Jay's definition.

Question for ya Jay.

When you refer to "any game", are you referring to card games only?

I can think of lots of games where partners use private agreements about how they will play... baseball comes to mind right off.

Signals between pitcher and catcher, coach and runner, shortstop and second baseman, pitcher and first baseman...

I do think of Spades as more like baseball. The team which can come up with the better and more intricate signaling techniques will have an advantage, and that is all part of the game.
Last edited by Galt on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Openshut » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:27 pm

Yet again I need to point out what is supposed to be simple.

There is the bidding process.
There is card play.

If we chose to have Bidding conventions, they should merely have hint information, and if you think about it, the concept of convention would be to bring concept of uniformity.

The Bid-5 ideology is a method to give an illegal announcement of cards held before the act of actually playing a card has begun.

To summarily say all communication is cheating is nonsense, this is a game of information, we expect logical thinking. I have stated before the guidelines of the games comes form statistics.

We know mechanical concepts, of how to maximize and minimize our hands potentials. Further more we also know when an opponents or even our partners is confused in their action trying to do option B but is really achieving option A.

The game is inundated with all forms of communication, be it active, passive, or oblivious.

Most, informational, convention sets attempts to streamline the information that is already there.

What many of us do not know is a unusual convention termed "By Contradiction" its states it is ck to break the rules and your partner needs to be smart or knowledgeable enough to use it with them.

One of the biggest issues with conventions is that they are often poorly implemented, and most players do not push them to their logical limit. It is often misunderstood to think everything ends with the conventions, but the reality should be opposite.

The grim reality is that conventions are often used as a crutch for good thinking, when in fact they are really to aid it.

And to bastardize the Bid Process to incorporate unfair information is unforgivable, it shows we just want to win and we do not care how.

If anything less than reasonable discussion ensues, I am done. I can not show the unwilling the light. Nor can I learn anything form those that improperly make their points by using slight of hand techniques.

For all intents of purposes this conversation is over, I have not seen one person that has given any proper arguments to defend the Big-5.
Only thing they have done is trying to make the issue complicated and equivocate. Then try to slide it back under the veil of reason.

This discussion has opened up my eyes to the modern day version of the Emperors New Clothes. Every one is too afraid to voice sound reasoning what a shame. Perhaps it is because it is in a book, what a novel idea!

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Post by dustin7609 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:08 pm

Openshut wrote: The Bid-5 ideology is a method to give an illegal announcement of cards held before the act of actually playing a card has begun.
Who makes the judgment it is illegal? You? Certainly no governing list of rules states this is the case.

You speak of Ethics in an armchair manner. Who makes the determination whether something is "ethical" or not? You?

As Jay alluded to, having a regular partner allows you to be privy to information that the opposition is not. Is that "ethical"?
Openshut wrote:To summarily say all communication is cheating is nonsense, this is a game of information, we expect logical thinking. I have stated before the guidelines of the games comes form statistics.
Precisely. Which is why a bidding convention is perfectly legal. Know this: There is no difference between an agreement between your partner and yourself as to the meaning of playing "hi-lo" or as to what a specific bid communicates.

Openshut wrote:And to bastardize the Bid Process to incorporate unfair information is unforgivable, it shows we just want to win and we do not care how.
Again, I beg the question: How is it unfair? Can you point me to governing rules which cover this?

I might add that I've yet to face an opposition that has implemented a conventional bidding system and gained an advantage. I've already explained why the Big 5 is really not a useful convention in the long run.

And I've played for many years among top-flight competitors. So if this is the case, it matters not what bidding conventions are utilized. If any advantage at all is gained through them, it is incredibly miniscule. One would do far better to study the game than waste time developing unfruitful bidding systems for the game of Spades. Bridge of course is an entirely different ballgame.
Openshut wrote:For all intents of purposes this conversation is over, I have not seen one person that has given any proper arguments to defend the Big-5.
Quite the contrary. Several individuals have stated many times on this thread the precise reason why the big 5 is legal and complies with the rules of spades.

On the other hand, you haven't stated anything compelling enough to refute this. Your statements that the bid is "unethical" or "illegal" are extremely general statements with no substance and completely unfounded. Rather than simply throw to the wind a statement such as "that is unethical", you should specify exactly why it is unethical (i.e. pointing us in the direction of Spades ethics).

And before you say that ethics are "common sense", clearly they are not otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

To me, "cheating" or "behaving in an unethical manner" would include any form of communicating outside the normal conducts of card playing. By "normal conducts of play" I am referring to the bidding process and the play of the hand. Obviously yahoo messenger does not follow within this confine and is therefore unethical to use.

Thus, the manner in which you play your cards (i.e. hi-low, top-of-sequence, etc) and also the bids that one makes can be utilized in any manner you see fit.

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Post by x MISSY x » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:36 pm

WoW i went on vacation and came home to find this thread is still being discussed. Is the horse dead yet?
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Post by Galt » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:33 pm

Yes OPEN, other than claiming that your minority opinion is fact, that is about all the justification for your position that you have offered.
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Post by grandmaS » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:43 pm

Ok all I have asked and deleted and asked and edited.........

I now pronounce the horse DEAD, services for the horse will be held in the swamp, thank you all for participating..........
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