Jxx sidesuit holding what to lead

What do you lead from Jxx (sidesuit holding) when forced

I lead the J
10
53%
I lead the middle x
0
No votes
I lead the lowest x
8
42%
Ive never thought about it, i dont know
1
5%
 
Total votes: 19

Manic
Active Poster
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:08 am
Location: UP or DOWN

Jxx sidesuit holding what to lead

Post by Manic » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:34 am

When you have Jxx in a given sidesuit and you are forced to lead from it, what do you lead?

Do you lead x from Jxx or
do you lead J from Jxx?

Im sure you will all agree that leading from Jxx to start with is FORCED... because if u had a better lead you would consider it.
Im sure most would prefer an opponent to open this suit in preference to opening it yourself.

Does anyone have any guidelines about how one should tackle such a lead situation?

Do the bids on either side of you influence what u lead here?

I can see costs and benefits of either lead.

So how do we get the most out of such a holding, when we are forced to lead from it?
Are there any generalizations we can make?

Note: we are trying to maximize tricks, we are considering a setting environment
Shallow men believe in luck. Strong men believe in cause and effect

Openshut
Active Poster
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:56 am

Post by Openshut » Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:34 am

I am not sure there is a proper answer, unless we discuss passive leads first. This would give more context to the issue and give this thread much more credence.

Will someone please step forth.

User avatar
Galt
Grand Master
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:57 am
Contact:

Post by Galt » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:29 am

This is a very general question and answer, but I will normally lead the Jack.

The reason is that it provides pard the realistic opportunity to hold up the King if he has it. I try very very hard to not kill my pard's kings, and leading a low card from a new suit is the very best way to execute royalty.
Image

User avatar
Dust In The Wind
Guide
Posts: 5343
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:29 pm
Location: North Ga Mts

Post by Dust In The Wind » Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:20 pm

I agree with the jack lead to pull higher and save maybe my pards high in that suit for a trick.

JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

_S_X_Eian_
Active Poster
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:33 am

Post by _S_X_Eian_ » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:21 am

I would also lead the J from that holding although I would look strongly for another lead. The J helps to protect your partners K as well is can pull out several top cards in a suit depending on the play of the other 3 players in a hand. I do the same thing with something like Q,3,2 or Q,4 if I have a long suit and distribution seems to be off. Again with all of this it depends on distribution, score, partners bid etc. There are many hands where you are left with no good lead and it is best to choose the one that doesn't screw over your partner. I am sure there will be people step up and tell me I am wrong but that is my play

Todd

Openshut
Active Poster
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:56 am

Post by Openshut » Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:01 am

Will someone please join me and disagree with _S_X_Eian_, I can't do it alone. any-who fun and joke aside. The answer is clearly lead J and it's clearly to lead x. So actually _S_X_Eian_ you are wrong. Sorry did not mean to say that directly, a more euphemistic approach is needed.

We can agree to disagree but this discussion needs more preponderance than simplistic conjecture, to think this question is really so simple is clearly a misconception ain't that right Manic.

User avatar
Galt
Grand Master
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:57 am
Contact:

Post by Galt » Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:26 am

Hey Todd.

My only quesiton is about the Queen lead.

I think that you know that I strongly recommend leading hi/lo from the Queen, in order to show 3rd round control to pard (e.g., 7 and then 4 from Q 7 4).

If forced to lead from that holding, the worry about the King disappears due to promotion of the Queen if the King is killed.

What are your thoughts on that?
Image

_S_X_Eian_
Active Poster
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:33 am

Post by _S_X_Eian_ » Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:42 pm

I do agree promotion is key in close hands or key hands which is why I pointed out distribution is key. If I for example have 8 diamonds 3 hearts (to the Q) 3 spades and a club there is a good chance that hearts won't go to the third round and also a good chance that your dimes will be cut first or second round. In these situations where it is key to find those cross trumping suits and perhaps steal a few tricks from the opps then I like the Q lead for a potential steal of the opps K. I do the high/low with the Q on normal hands or hands where my partner is showing strength. If my partner is weak and the opposing team has strong bids then leading the Q accomplishes 1 of 2 things. The first is that if it is taken then it aids in bagging later on in the hand. If it walks and we steal a K from the opponents then the set may become a little easier to see. It starts the hand with a clear method of play. If I lead from Q,3,2 on a 10 bid and its taken by opps I just unloaded a potential bag but if opponents let me have it and I can steal another trick or 2 my partner may have the cards to set later on in the hand. If the distribution is more like a 3,3,3,4 then yes there is a better chance that the Q will walk and sometimes saving the Q is better but if left with no other lead and when not counting the Q as a trick I think its as good of a lead as any. Summed up if you don't think your Q will walk use it to promote the suit for your partner later in the hand (big bid by pard). If the Q might walk lead elsewhere if possible. My favorite situation is when the Q,3 is in south, the K,10 is in West and the A,J is in north. Leading the Q kills the K and more then likely a trick that was counted by the opposition. This doesn't always happen but when it does it increases the likelyhood of a set. If it doesn't happen it doesn't have any effect on our time at the time other then being a possible third round winner that you have given up.

Todd

User avatar
Galt
Grand Master
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:57 am
Contact:

Post by Galt » Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:14 pm

Thanks Todd. Yup, I tend to look at these qyestions in terms of normal (or average) hands, but all that you said makes perfect sense.
Image

Manic
Active Poster
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:08 am
Location: UP or DOWN

Post by Manic » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:35 pm

It looks like losing the King is the only consideration.
from what has been written so far, lots of people think the J lead is a defensive lead...

Does anyone worry about losing the Q? when leading from a Qxx holding
Or back to the thread's crux, does anyone care if they lose the J?

Are there players who are trying to maximize tricks when they hold
Qxx and Jxx ...
Are players only concerned about making the Ace and King in a respected sidesuit?? or are they seriously considering winning the 3rd trick if it splits even.

Does anyone think that if u lead the J from Jxx you will stand a chance of endplaying your team out of a trick?

Leading from a Qxx holding would be even worse...

However when are faced with a FORCED lead from Jxx holding....

Does a lead of a J from Jxx give us the best chance of maximizing tricks?

The reason i say forced, is because its not a good holding to lead from in terms of endplaying and promotions.

The other thing im wondering is what are players inclinations in terms of covering honors in 2nd seat....?

If Galt led the J from Jxx as he suggested as did 6 other voters...

And your sitting in 2nd seat with Qxx do u immediately cover that J with your Q?

What happens though when the Q is not to your left... and its to your right... does this make a difference to your situation?

Does the majority of the spading community truly think that the J lead from Jxx is the best lead for maximising tricks?

I thought maybe it was more complicated than that...
Shallow men believe in luck. Strong men believe in cause and effect

User avatar
Galt
Grand Master
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:57 am
Contact:

Post by Galt » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:04 am

It certainly isn't the best for maximizing tricks. That is why consideration of the score is so important.

The question, being posed as having been forced into a lead from Jxx, to me suggests that I do not have a good lead, and therefore am starting this hand from a position of weakness.

If starting from a position of weakness, I start to think defensive.

Regarding covering honors in 2nd seat, I recommend almost always covering the Queen with the King. I think that it is easier to make a case for letting a Jack go (I think a lot has to do with the perceived strength of the opps), but I will often cover it as well.
Image

_S_X_Eian_
Active Poster
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:33 am

Post by _S_X_Eian_ » Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:57 am

I also answered initially under the assumption there is no better lead. As for covering the J in second seat. I will usually cover the J with the Q although if I hold the Q,K and partners bid is strong I might depending on situation let it slide. If we need a set then then I try to create false tricks by promotion of suits. In such a case when the game is on the line I might hold on to tricks in hopes of setting up a situation to pull a set out of our butts. My style of play is playing passive at the beginning of a hand and deciding whether a set is possible allowing my partner to show me their strength and adjusting to the way the hand plays to decide whether we set or bag. If my partner can win some "false tricks" with Q's and J's and sometimes even 10's then the set sometimes presents itself even in the most unlikely of situations. If opponents expect you to play 1 way and you play completely opposite I have seen very good teams fall apart in the closing hands.

So basically it depends on score and situation whether I do second seat high although in most situations the answer is yes I rise up with the Q in second seat. As for worrying about losing the J or Q no I am not. Alot of people worry about losing honor cards but if by sacrificing your honors you set up the rest of the hand for a set it is definately worth it. Prime example. J is lead by south. You hold Q,10,9,8 sitting in second seat. You play your Q. North is sitting with K,7,6. They are forced to play the K and potentially lose it or don't play the K and potentially lose it. Your partner west sits with the A. If the trick goes J,Q,K,A then all of a sudden your sitting with top 3 cards and have 3 potential winners in that suit. The promotion of the suit have made the 10 and 9 powerful cards. Sacrificing your Q has caused the opponents to sacrifice their K. In Chess this would be a great move :)

Todd

User avatar
Galt
Grand Master
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:57 am
Contact:

Post by Galt » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:39 am

I agree with you completely, but I want to mention one thing.

If you have the Q 10 9 8, and someone leads the Jack, since all of the cards are touching, and at that point equal, there would be no possible reason to not cover with the Q (well, the one possible reason would be making a mistake...lol).

Todd, I know that you know the above, and was just pointing it out for someone who might be wondering about the example.
Image

User avatar
dustin7609
Active Poster
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:22 pm

Post by dustin7609 » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:42 am

Play of the Hand literature will recommend leading low from Jxx. You would only lead the jack if it is supported, singleton or doubleton. Leading an unsupported jack is for the most part a waste of a potentially valuable honor card.

I only lead top-of-nothing (passive) when I lack an honor card (10 down). I like leading low from Jxx as I may be able to promote the jack.

Blah. That is sort of true.

No, the real usefulness is communication. From a trick standpoint, leading the unsupported jack is probably about as useful as leading low over the course of many hands. If one has an edge over the other, it is very miniscule.

On the other hand, from a communications standpoint, following the rules will gain you more information.

I always prefer that my partner only lead a jack when supported, singleton or doubleton (or in some cases to make an endplay as the hand has developed).

The reason I prefer this is that it allows me to make more aggressive decisions when I hold Axx or a similar holding. In short, it tells me more about my partner's holding.

Thus, the usefulness for me in having this convention is twofold. It tells me about my partner's holding from what he leads and from what he doesn't lead. Oftentimes I learn more about my partner's hand from what he didn't lead rather than what he did lead.

To sum this up, the reason I think jacks should only be led when supported, singleton or doubleton isn't that I think such a lead is less effective on that particular trick. Rather, it's a conventional agreement that tells me more about the hand in general. If my partner were to lead the jack from J10x, J, Jx, Jxx, Jxxx, etc now I've lost the ability to deduce his or her holding with accuracy and can't make an as informed decision. Make sense? I need to have a picture of what partner is holding over there. Is it an empty suit? Supported suit? Short suited? Strong suit? Weak suit? Very important things to know!!

Also in Spades, it doesn't pay to cover jacks with queens in 2nd seat (unless you have the Q10 tenace). It is correct to cover queens with kings, but it is generally unwise to cover a jack with the queen. The reason is that 99.99% of all 3rd seat players will go over their partner's jack with the ace. This allows you to maintain 3rd round control. Covering with the queen would surrender third round control to a very likely 10 spot to your right.

The idea of covering, of course, is to thwart a possible finesse. In my experience, it is rare to see this type of finesse attempted. Now if you happen to face an opponent who does make this type of play, then you will want to adjust your strategy. But this is very rare.

Playing the opponent is key! Some opponents always play the ace in 3rd seat on partner's queen lead. In these cases, don't cover queens with your king! But from a majority standpoint, covering the queen with the king is correct while not covering the jack with the queen is also correct.

In Bridge, on the other hand, the decision to cover or not requires more thought. The enormous difference, of course, is that one hand is exposed and this completely alters your approach. Having blind hands simplifies the decision process.

That being said, stay alert and play the hand. Towards the end of the hand, everything changes. You might be able to endplay your RHO by making a 2nd hand play that you normally wouldn't (Jumping up with queen with Qxx, or covering a jack lead with your empty queen).

User avatar
Galt
Grand Master
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:57 am
Contact:

Post by Galt » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:10 pm

NIce post.

As usual, my response was assuming that I don't really know my pard that well, as is often the case with me.

My comment about covering Jacks related to your comment about knowing your opps.

My only question is about your estimate of 99.99 on the deep finesse. Common, its gotta be higher than 1 out of 10,000. Don't ya think that it's at least 2?
Image

Post Reply