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What A Last Hand

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:13 am
by bubblegum
The score is N/S 444 E/W 410.

W opens with 5 bid holding:
6JA :spade: 89A :heart: 910JK :club: 4QK :diamond:

I am in the N seat, 2nd to bid holding:
234QK :spade: QK :heart: 46 :club: 79JA :diamond:
Generally, I would bid 5 with this hand, but given the situation I felt it was necessary to underbid and give myself the opportunity to throw off to try to set a nil, or lose a trick covering a nil. Any comments on this are welcome.

E in 3rd seat bids Nil holding:
57 :spade: 567J :heart: 378 :club: 35810 :diamond:

S in 4th seat holds:
8910 :spade: 23410 :heart: 25QA :club: 26 :diamond:

Is this a situation to nil, or is it better to try to set one of the opps given the highly susceptible spade and club holdings?

I'll share how the hand played out after I get some feedback on the bids, it actually turned out to be quite extraordinary.

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:19 pm
by EvilIntentions
Mike you didnt say how much you did bid, although you said was an underbid to give you room to manuver.

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:00 pm
by bubblegum
Yes, sorry. I bid 4... in a normal situation I would have bid 5, although I could have bid 6 if I really wanted to max. So the bids in front are 5, 4 for pard, and nil in 3rd seat.

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:05 pm
by Galt
If you bid less than 5, I thnk that South has to bid Nil. Otherwise, he is looking at having to get 5 tricks out of his hand and your overtricks.

If you did bid 5, it becomes a closer call, but I still think the Nil is the better bid.

Even though in this case it isn't true, West should not be making a bid that will be difficult to make while covering a Nil. I have to assume that West is making a reasonable bid assuming that his pard may very likely Nil.

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:11 pm
by bubblegum
Galt,

What would have bid with my hand in this position? (2nd seat) I ended up bidding 4, but I would normally have bid 5, and I could have even maxed with 6 if my pard leads spades.

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:14 pm
by EvilIntentions
I bet your p bet 5 and set the opps 5 bid

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:45 pm
by williamrocks
ok being vs good players , and i know if i was the opp that 8 9 10 spades wouldnt of made, bc if im outbid with 2 nils last hand my pards nil is on their on , so what i would do , seeing we need 60 out bid , my p has bid 4 i would bid 2 to bid us out to 500 , and i would attack the 5 bid and at the same time being i only took table to 11 bid we also have room to set the nil if possible

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:48 pm
by williamrocks
and to julie not sure i'd bid 5 because u can set the 5 bid with a 2 bid and leave room for nil 2 does just as good as a 5 bid just leaves nil set option open , too

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:49 am
by dustin7609
For some reason this layout looks backwards to me, so let me repost it.

N/S 444
E/W 410.

W opens with 5:
:spade:AJ6
:heart:A98
:diamond:KQ4
:club:KJ109

N bids 4
:spade:KQ432
:heart:KQ
:diamond:AJ97
:club:64

East Nils:
:spade:75
:heart:AQ52
:diamond:10853
:club:873

South Holds
:spade:1098
:heart:10432
:diamond:62
:club:AQ52

Ah, much better. Now I can read it.

West has a couple decisions here. 1) bid max and hope East can complete to get to 500. 2) Bid 3, and hope partner has a nil. N/S will have to bid 10 or a nil to outbid us.

The problem I have with the first choice is that if we have a 9 bid, then it's highly likely they have a nil. So I'd tend to lean towards the second approach.

North must bid full value now. Certainly you want to leave some room if there is a nil, but South will bid 1 and you will have that room. The importance of bidding full value I cannot stress enough. South needs a full picture of your values in order to make an intelligent decision here.

If the bidding had gone as I recommend : 3 -- 5 -- N -- Now South is going to have to make a desperation nil call.

If it had gone as I recommend for North: 5 -- 5 -- N Now South should bid. West's bid is in jeopardy with South leading through him. No reason to bid an insane nil -- attack West!

If the bidding had gone as described: 5 -- 4 -- N South has a tough call now. Still, against a sound defense, nil is a long shot at best. Certainly West will not send me flowers and cover me. I think I'd tend to agree with Will above and attack the cover in this case as well. Now if you are playing cluess opponents, by all means nil here. But I like to solve problems assuming good opponents and proper defense.

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:59 am
by Galt
Hi.

I would have bid 5 for the reason that Dustin stated. We certainly don't need the points from the bid, but it makes pard's decision easier.

I also agree with Dustin that the 5 bid by West is highly questionable.

By the way, looking at the balanced nature of West's hand, I am betting that your pard bid Nil and that the Nil made. I can recall making a ridiculous number of Nils like this at HW, although I do not think that it has anything to do with HW.

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:01 pm
by bubblegum
Sorry for the layout Dustin, that is much easier to read.

I see your point in bidding tight to relay information to my pard in 4th seat to help her make the best bid, but I'm still not sure I agree with max bidding out of my hand for a couple reasons.

First off, let's imagine East and South swapped hands. Now my pard has the nil, and I have to make my 5 bid and cover the nil in order to win should pard decide to nil. Successful Nil less a set 5 bid leaves us 494, however had I bid 4 and got set, we would be 504. It's very possible I could have made 1 heart, lose my Ace diamond, and make 3 spades. Now the game continues. with a smaller lead with a 5 bid.

Let's still imagine East and South swap hands. Had I bid 5 pard may decide to bid 1, that hand will not make 1, so now I must make 6 out of my hand which is possible with pard bidding, but not an easy task. Getting set on a 6 bid here makes a very desperate situation for the next hand. In this same situation, had I bid 4, my pard will most definitely nil rather than bid 2 with that hand.

The only benefit of max bidding I find relevant is to try to set the 5 bid, which is really quite obvious if my pard is going to bid anyway. While bidding 4 gives me the advantage of not worrying of my bid if covering a nil, and bidding 4 in 2nd seat after a 5 bid shows my hand is very strong.

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:52 pm
by dustin7609
bubblegum wrote:Sorry for the layout Dustin, that is much easier to read.

I see your point in bidding tight to relay information to my pard in 4th seat to help her make the best bid, but I'm still not sure I agree with max bidding out of my hand for a couple reasons.

First off, let's imagine East and South swapped hands.
I understand your worry, Bubblegum. But let's think about the situation a bit more.

First off, I don't consider a 5 bid "maxing" your hand or "bidding tight" at all. Your hand has excellent positional strength. I consider it simply bidding your hand. More often than not this hand is worth 6, especially with the stronger hand to your right. In Bridge, we call this a 5-4 hand with positional advantage.

If we switch the East and South hands, then we're home free. As now they cannot outbid us. And if you have a partner that nils in this situation, you need to find a new partner -- asap.

The situation you describe which worries you -- partner having a busted hand and us going set on a 6 bid, will happen extremely rarely. With our strong hand, it is very likely we'll be able to establish 6 tricks.

It's worth taking this very small risk in order to accurately describe to partner our playing strength. The last thing we want to do is put him in a situation deciding whether he needs to take a risky nil, or set West. Which is precisely what happened here! Think about this:

The bidding has gone: West: 5 North: 4 East: Nil. We hold:
:spade:1098
:heart:10432
:diamond:62
:club:AQ52

It certainly doesn't look like an easy decision. Is West set? Eh, maybe. Maybe not. Can a nil make? Possibly.

However, if the bidding had gone:

West: 5 North: 5 East: Nil. Now it's a no brainer! West is surely set.

As North, as soon as West clicks "5", you should be thinking his bid is in jeopardy -- especially since East will almost surely nil. That being the case, let your partner in on this information! Paint a picture for him! Tell him about your strength so that there is no tough decision.

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:38 pm
by bubblegum
Not sure how to use the quote option on here how it is meant to be used, but I agree that 5 is a safe bid for my hand, and it is probable I can make 6 in most situations. However, if I trump in on one of my short suits, either club or heart, and get overtrumped behind me, there is very little chance of making 6 between our hands now. If it was a 3rd heart lead, I would toss off a club, but if it were a 3rd club lead, I would most likely trump in had both 3rd and 4th seat bid. My hand is more valuable with the somewhat long holding in diamonds, AJxx. Nonetheless, I respect your opinion and appreciate your input. I'm just still unsure the value of the information sent to my pard for that 5th trick. I think it was an 1800 game, and I expected West to have a solid 5 bidding that in first seat knowing his partner would most likely nil if they were to win the game on that hand. I tend to bid more on the conservative side rather than the aggressive side, and my pard happened to be a reg partner. Knowing this she should have known the strength of my hand in bidding 4 in 2nd seat after a 5 bid in first seat. Now seeing the first seat's hand, his bid is too agressive, he should have bid 3 or 4. His hand was easily been set had my partner eleceted to bid, and had I elected to bid 5 she may have elceted to bid. However, she elected to nil and here is how the hand played out.



W
:spade: AJ6
:heart: A98
:club: KJ109
:diamond: KQ4

N
:spade: KQ432
:heart: KQ
:club: 64
:diamond: AJ97

E
:spade: 75
:heart: J765
:club: 873
:diamond: 10853

S
:spade: 1098
:heart: 10432
:club: AQ52
:diamond: 62


West has lead to begin and opens clubs playing 9c followed by 10c and everyone playing under.
He continues with Jc and N trumps in with 2 sp. East follows with 3c and S Ac

I shifted to diamonds leading Ad followed by 9d. West noticed my partners safe diamond holding and dropped the 4d on the first lead keeping KQ.

He took the lead with Q d on the 2nd diamond lead.

At this point in the hand West won 3 tricks and North won 2.

West shifted to hearts leading his 8, North took with Kh and led a third diamond trick, which West took with K.

West back in the lead, in my opinion rather foolishly led the 6 spade, which was taken by North with K followed by the 7sp and 10sp from the nils.

North elected to lead his last diamond which was cut with the Ace sp from West.

West led his 9 h which was taken by North's Qh and we've come to the following situation:

North in the lead holding
:spade: Q43

East holding

:spade: 5
:heart: 76

South holding

:spade: 98
:club: Q

West holding

:spade: J
:heart: A
:club: K


Knowing my West held the J of spade from his first spade lead, and that East didn't have the 8 or 9 from that spade lead, I elected to lead low spade in case my partner held what she did hold, the 8 and 9 of spades. The 3 :spade: lead was taken by West's last :spade: J. He then led back K :club: which was trumped with 4 :spade: , and the last trick was taken with Q :spade: .

I had recently read Jason Andrew's book on Spades, in which I received an autographed version using my ladderbux from league play in True Friends of Spades, and he described this exact situation in an excerpt from his book. I loaned this book to a friend, and can't find it in the ladder prizes at the moment, so I'm not sure of the exact title of the book. It was really quite the ending to a game, and I doubt I would have led the low spade without reading this excerpt.

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:02 pm
by Galt
That would be Joe A.

He did a couple of books on the game.

Re: What A Last Hand

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:49 pm
by bubblegum
Yes you're right. My apologies to Joe. And the name of the book is The Complete Win At Spades: Basic, Intermediate, and Advanced Strategies and Official Rules