Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

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Chevy43
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Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by Chevy43 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:03 am

Correct me if I am wrong but its been said in Lobby MULTIPLE times, so many in fact , its grilled in everyones head, a member can NOT become a guide with a bad track record in HW. So with that being said... What is up with one of your Guides having the illustrious position bestowed on him ..AND having a record of being BANNED? Now before you say this is hearsay ... or rumor... HE ( PI ) SAID it himself in lobby. Thank you so much for taking the time to Investigate this.

Grandma .. please leave this here in forum. Can we as players please have a place to really express what we need to. The lobby is not the place and when others tried on this subject ... SEVERAL were silenced... SO please can we talk and ask questions here. If people get too rude or verbally ignorant then delete it .. but please let people express... Thank you.

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Re: Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by Sagwa » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:14 am

Ugh, I do not want this to come off as bashing. I will choose my words wisely.

I did see the blue tell the lobby , banned for arguing in lobby.
A player asked another Blue, that blue told us to e mail support. And ask or give our thoughts on it.

But in the meantime, while *another Blue* was telling the lobby this, quite a few got silenced or warned by
first blue.

I've filed a few reports over the weekend, dealing with 1st blue.

But after seeing what 1st blue told the lobby, I'm really concerned; that my thoughts are very very honest and quite
correct.

I think I will stop with that, let them mull it over and read reports.

And in no way was this bashing or any mean words.

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Re: Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by Sailing_Away » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:22 pm

It's of my opinion that sometimes the worst criminals can become the best cops because they know and recognize criminal behaviour. As such, on a much smaller scale, I wouldn't object if a formerly banned player were to "get reformed" and become a guide at some point. There would have to be such a point of reform though.... certainly one would know by ones actions.

I know nothing about this specific guide or situation.
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"Come Sail Away with me...."

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Jonas
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Re: Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by Jonas » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:30 pm

Not speaking to any specific scenario, I'll say that its the general guidelines that folks that get band are not apt to be great guides, so we usually cull people out of the process in the front end and its just a lot simpler for guides to say " we don't accept players that have a ban on the record"

That said, we actually just factor in the ban or any other thing and ask ourselves if we think this it going to be an issue. If its something from the distant past, minor in nature, and over that time the person has shown they've overcame the issue that caused the ban in the 1st place, I'd definitely conciser them. But more importantly, they have to get through the guides, as they take a vote to consider weather that person should even go into guide training.

I'd say 99% of the people that have gotten banned would not be someone I'd be willing to have running around with guide powers nor would the other guides.

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Re: Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by Chevy43 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:32 pm

TY for Jonas for replying. I know the guides have mentioned that they arent privy to who is banned. So I am assuming the final vote of whether or not the person gets the guidehood comes down to you or one of you there @ the office. Please read the reports/letters/complaints from this past weekend on this particular guide. This is an ongoing issue. This is part of the reason why the question of how a guide with a ban on his record gets to be a guide was asked. Especially when it was for arguing. I know this is a non paying "job"... however you have selected a few people for this and are doing a great FAIR job ....and then there a few others.... well.. if you want names...... I will be glad to give ...just ask :-).... Thanks Jonas...

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Re: Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by Concerned Member » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:32 pm

Jonas: "Not speaking to any specific scenario, I'll say that its the general guidelines that folks that get band are not apt to be great guides, so we usually cull people out of the process in the front end and its just a lot simpler for guides to say " we don't accept players that have a ban on the record"

Concerned: Since the guides are often asked how a member can become a guide I am sure they do seek to make the answer easier. However, what the guides actually say is you can't be a guide if you have ever been banned OR even silenced. That is why so many chatters expressed surprise when they heard (actually read in the guides own words) that the active guide had once been banned.

Jonas: "That said, we actually just factor in the ban or any other thing and ask ourselves if we think this it going to be an issue. If its something from the distant past, minor in nature, and over that time the person has shown they've overcame the issue that caused the ban in the 1st place, I'd definitely conciser them. But more importantly, they have to get through the guides, as they take a vote to consider weather that person should even go into guide training."[/list]

Concerned: That sounds pretty reasonable to me. However, in the situation mentioned (and I also was present and read what was going on) the never banned guide stated very clearly that the guides never even SEE a guide applicant's prior site record. Ultimately the non banned guide stated that the banned guide had approached "YOU" (Jonas) and it was your call.

Actually, I felt sorry for the never banned guide being put in the embarrassingly awkward position of trying to explain how this came to happen... especially when the banned guide in question showed up at that exact time. At that point, as Sagwa accurately put it, a number of people were silenced. I was not chatting at the moment so I wasn't silenced, but I was reading along and witnessed the outcome. I witnessed the previously banned guides behavior and attitude and would say to use descriptive terms such as smug, insolent, and defying would be totally accurate. It was a Eddie Haskell moment. Laughing right in the lobby faces.

Jonas: I'd say 99% of the people that have gotten banned would not be someone I'd be willing to have running around with guide powers nor would the other guides.

Concerned: I see no flaw in your logic. However, I think this is a case that the site ended up being bit in the butt by that 1 % decision.

My take on this, having seen gawd knows how many comments about this one guide, is that the incident discussed is the symptom. The "problem" as I see it is that the formerly banned member, but now active guide, is "out of step" with the flow and conduct of the other guides.

Guides have a rough job at times. To be blunt they put up with a lot of crap. The good ones, which are IMO far and away the majority, display a consistently mature attitude. Oh any person can not be in the mood to coddle a jerk on any given day, but as a rule the majority of guides seem to do an excellent job of defusing situations and not exacerbating them. They silence as a last resort. First they try to educate in a way that is non combative.

I guess you could say most guides use a ready, aim and fire approach. The guide in question style is ready, fire!!!, and aim. Very itchy trigger finger. IMO the same anger that got the guide banned in the past is still, obviously, present.

The result is that the people that were silenced for petty little comments get angrier -- since they now feel they have a real gripe. An overreacting guide causes a pattern of overreacting chatters. Ten, twenty or whatever minutes later the gag is off the chatter, and the lobby becomes worse.

I don't ask or expect you to take my word on this. Rather, I suggest you compare the silencing activity of the guides. Something is drastically askew if one individual guide has a sustained history of "out silencing" other guides by leaps and bounds. I do not know if you have the ability to objectively "measure" or "monitor" guides behavior in this way. I would certainly hope so, if for no other reason but to protect the financial health of your business.

Bottom line, IMO, the guide in question is simply not up to the sites overall guide standards. It is that plain. It is that simple.

Of course it is your airline so you are free to run it any way you see fit. You can run it like Southwest or Jet Blue. That is rightfully your decision.

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Re: Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by Lace » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:08 pm

Sorry Concerned, but I was called into spades tonight from Hearts and it was a TOTAL mess with no guides around. I spent over an hour and was called into at least 20 tables. If you feel you can do a better job....apply for it! Just don't put down the folks that volunteer their time to actually HELP in there. It's not a walk in the park, trust me.
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Re: Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by sandbar » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:11 pm

Seems to me that you (the players) are all bashing this guide because he is making Spades a better place for other players to play in.
I and others have guided with PI, and he has made a difference in Spades, maybe this is what you, (the players) don't like, being able to say and do what you (the players) like.
Last edited by sandbar on Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by Concerned Member » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:57 pm

Lace: Sorry Concerned, but I was called into spades tonight from Hearts and it was a TOTAL mess with no guides around. I spent over an hour and was called into at least 20 tables. If you feel you can do a better job....apply for it! . It's not a walk in the park, trust me.. If you feel you can do a better job....apply for it! Just don't put down the folks that volunteer their time to actually HELP in there.

Concerned: Huh? My post clearly supported guides in general.

You call this a put down? --> "Guides have a rough job at times. To be blunt they put up with a lot of crap. The good ones, which are IMO far and away the majority, display a consistently mature attitude...as a rule the majority of guides seem to do an excellent job of defusing situations and not exacerbating them."

Let me be clear. I did no such thing as put guides down. Your assertion is false. I am sorry you were apparently angered by my comments. I will not, however, offer an apology for something I did not do.

Quite frankly I believe that people who attack guides, seemingly for the sport of it, have major issues with authority figures. The fact that guides take time away from their personal lives, without any pay, to help others sort of makes guides virtually unassailable by reasons of common sense and fairness. I hate to think what the site would be without guides. I know I'd have left a long time ago if guides didn't exist.

If you reread my entire post you will notice that I made honest observations about ONE guide which I supported with verifiable facts. Why did I post it?

Like I said to Jonas: "the guide in question is simply not up to the sites overall guide standards."

What I did was reply directly, but civilly, to Jonas' post... and I addressed specific points raised by him, in his response to the thread topic.

Are you suggesting that the authority of guides, e.g. the power granted to guides to silence trouble makers and disruptors, should be so absolute or sacrosanct that even the suggestion of improper guide behavior should not be allowed to be communicated by mere customers to site management? If that is the case it would appear that you disagree with site management directives to have guides refer chatters with guide issues to either email to support or this forum.

Do you realize that even your comment to me: "If you feel you can do a better job....apply for it!" seems to suggest that you resent a customer following proper procedure?

Sadly, your comment: "Just don't put down the folks that volunteer their time to actually HELP in there" adds (IMO) nothing to the discussion. Rather it suggests an unwillingness, on your part, to accept the fact that site management policy is to hold everyone accountable for their actions... both members and guides.

May I suggest, if you have issues regarding my civil posts here, that you send a report to Jonas that fully supports your implied position that civil discourse, in the proper place, is something only a guide should be privileged to enjoy.
Last edited by Concerned Member on Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by Concerned Member » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:38 pm

SANDBAR: Seems to me that you are all bashing this guide because he is making Spades a better place for other players to play in. I and others have guided with PI, and he has made a difference in Spades, .

Concerned: I will agree he has made a difference in Spades. I disagree that it is wholly a positive change. That was and remains the central point I put forward in my response to Jonas' post.

Also, while I realize that your comment was not addressed directly to me, I will take issue with your: "maybe this is what you don't like, being able to say and do what you like" --- since your words appear to suggest that you feel only guides are allowed to have an opinion about things spade. If that is the case why have this members forum and invite members to post comments here in the first place?

Since the TOS of this forum are different than the TOS that applies in the spades lobby, i.e. extended but civil intellectual discussion is allowed (encouraged) here, I am able to say what I want here. Obviously the spades lobby is not a suitable place to even attempt such a discussion. You would have all kinds of additional problems if such topics were allowed in the lobby.

Do you argue that this not the PROPER place to discuss such issues? That argument fails under its own weight. Or are you simply angry for some reason that issues, which I personally wish had no reason to be raised in the first place, were in fact raised -- and are just blowing off steam in frustration?

In either event, your argument is specious.

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Re: Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by Lace » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:04 am

Concerned Member wrote:SANDBAR: Since the TOS of this forum are different than the TOS that applies in the spades lobby, i.e. extended but civil intellectual discussion is allowed (encouraged) here, I am able to say what I want here. Obviously the spades lobby is not a suitable place to even attempt such a discussion. You would have all kinds of additional problems if such topics were allowed in the lobby.

Do you argue that this not the PROPER place to discuss such issues? That argument fails under its own weight. Or are you simply angry for some reason that issues, which I personally wish had no reason to be raised in the first place, were in fact raised -- and are just blowing off steam in frustration?



If you complain about a Game Guide decision or issue in the lobby you can be reprimanded. if you feel a Game Guide is showing favor to one or more parties please use the in-game report system or email our support department.

These are from http://www.silvercrk.com/server_rules.htm. I do believe it says "server rules" which is also what this forum runs on. The proper path to file a complaint is given.
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Re: Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by Concerned Member » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:13 am

LACE: If you complain about a Game Guide decision or issue in the lobby you can be reprimanded. if you feel a Game Guide is showing favor to one or more parties please use the in-game report system or email our support department.

These are from http://www.silvercrk.com/server_rules.htm. I do believe it says "server rules" which is also what this forum runs on. The proper path to file a complaint is given.[/quote]


Concerned Member: Forum Rule #7 --> Posts in a particular forum need to stay on topic. If you want to talk about something that is drastically removed from the topic of a game, please take it to General Stuff. General Stuff was set up and designed for members to discuss issues not related to a specific game title. We welcome most general conversation in the General Stuff, but discourage it from the game forums.

For YEARS this forum has allowed (and actually encouraged) serious, civil discusson about a wide range of topics/subjects ranging from cheating, abususive players, supposed bad dealer programs, and (gasp) improper behavior by guides. It appears this long established policy does not meet with your approval. Technically, it looks like the thread should have been started in the general topic area of the forum... but I was not the one that started the tread so don't blame me. Besides, it could be moved if anyone felt it needed to be.

I wouldn't get into a flaming contest with you in the lobby because I consider it childish... so in my case fear of being silenced is not the issue. I understand why the rules are the rules and find myself in general agreement with them.

I won't get into a flaming contest on this forum either, since it would be equally as childish.

Considering the topic of this tread there is bittersweet irony in the fact that Jonas did not see fit to imply that this thread was inappropriate and yet YOU (Lace) seem to have a serious hangup about it.

Please know that I was raised to respond to comments made to me.. but only up to a point. Both my mother and father taught me to stand up for myself,, but also lovingly convinced me that having the last word is far less important than standing on firm, intellectually honest ground in the first place.

Accordingly, I will not be responding to any further posts from you unless they are topic related and on point.

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Jonas
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Re: Becoming a GUIDE with a BAD HW RECORD

Post by Jonas » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:07 pm

Lace is correct, if you have concerns about any particular guide, then reports or emails to support@silvercrk.com are the way to go. The thread topic was weather one can be a guide with a ban on their record which I responded to.

I don't think there is much more to be said than whats been said.

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