Tired of this

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Tired of this

Post by Tater » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:36 pm

when I host a game I expect 2 players to play. If 1 quits HW says 'Click here for a bot" I click a bot and next thing I know I got a guide on my case because I didn't follow protocol. Why is that option allowed, if a blu one can make a decision to off set the TOS? Bet I dont get a straight answer. I broke no rules, yet I was kicked, Jason you need to make ruling we can all adhere to.
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Post by XtesterX » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:45 am

for some strange reason, Hardwood decided along time ago, that people should be able to leave games whenever it pleased them, no matter how inconveinced the other players were....

they can join game after game after game quitting each, and if you so much as mention that they are doing that in the lobby YOU will be silenced, but they will be allowed to continue...

strange...

/me no longer plays partner games at hardwood for this very reason....

no one gets upset when you replace a quitter with a bot in singles play..

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Post by grandmaS » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:27 am

LOL its not that Hardwood thinks its okay to quit a game, instead they have put in their own method of taking care of the problem (the percentage in the profile which after to many quits you can not join a rated game, and the fact that you get a loss for every game you quit reguardless of how the game accually turns out)

Yelling so and so quit in the lobby only serves to upset the lobby and cause disturbances where its not needed. Secondly not all "apparent" quits are quits there are computers and servers that go down beyond anyone's control, there are partners who badger and bash their pards to the point they decide its not worth it to stay, there are opponents who decide they are losing and stall the game into eternity if no guide happens to be present to take care of the problem.

Any of these situations outside of the first one if allowed to yell quitter in the lobby would most likely (and has) caused an argument, the player who left the game in the lobby yelling "if you hadn't been cussing me blah blah I wouldn't have had to quit" the player in the game yelling quitter knowing no one in the lobby knows the whole story yells back "no one was picking on you get back in here" and on and on it goes...........

Hardwood simply doesn't feel the whole lobby of sometimes 100's needs to be subjected to this so the rule is you can't yell quitter in the lobby. Hardwood will take care of the situation with the things they have installed.

Next, botting a quitter is allowed, however many guides feel its RUDE, to not at least give the player (in partners) a chance to get a sub if one is available in a reasonable amount of time. The player left in the game, did not quit and yet you would punish them by giving them an inferiour partner (a bot) for an easy win rather then allowing them to get a sub and at least give you a little compitition. We have players who sadly to say will deliberately be mean or stall games so that one or both of the players will in fact quit and they can bot the seats and take easy wins. Which is no better then the players who quit for no good reason. .........

The games are supposed to be FUN and Competitive either of these situations removes those elements from the game.

That is my opinion as one player and one guide in SCE being both I have seen situations from both sides. I personally don't quit games because someone is being a jerk but I can certainly understand why some would. And when I used to be on dial up I did lose connection and couldn't get back in time from time to time, it happens sad that a partner has to suffer for it.

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Re: Tired of this

Post by omni_555 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:30 am

Tater wrote:when I host a game I expect 2 players to play. If 1 quits HW says 'Click here for a bot" I click a bot and next thing I know I got a guide on my case because I didn't follow protocol. Why is that option allowed, if a blu one can make a decision to off set the TOS? Bet I dont get a straight answer. I broke no rules, yet I was kicked, Jason you need to make ruling we can all adhere to.
Tater, in the scenario you described, there is no good reason you should have been kicked. However, I have been reading these forums long enough to know that seldom do we get the FULL story from just one side!!!

Technically, if you are host and a player quits or leaves, then you DO have the absolute RIGHT to bot that seat. However, because you CAN do it doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it. For instance, like grandmaS said, if you jump the gun without giving the deserted partner a chance to find a sub, you are unfairly penalizing that player. And don't worry about the "quitter" gaining points if the new sub BEATS you - HW has looked after that. A person can ONLY gain points if he was one of the original players in the game AND is present at the end of the game.

On the other side, if the seat has been empty for a while (several minutes...) then I would see no problem with seating a bot. After all, you can't just wait FOREVER for a sub to enter the game!!!

It comes down to a matter of COMMON SENSE and COMMON DECENCY. 1) Give the other player a chance to get a sub before saddling him with a bot for a partner. 2) Regardless of how quickly you pop a bot into the empty seat, that ALONE should not warrant your being kicked from the game. It might not have been a NICE thing to do, but it wasn't worthy of such harsh punishment either! 8)
Playing games should be FUN - seek out your own level! Don't frustrate others unnecessarily. 8)

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Post by Tater » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:34 am

I said nothing in the lobby, I said nothing in the room, The guide decided I was not allowed to bot a vacant seat. I dont want a ringer with nothing vested in a game to sit and listen to their yada yada. If my p quits I bot my chair. I dont see that a guide should be involved at all.
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Post by Cadienne » Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:15 pm

If you feel wronged then email Jason @ support with game # with a short response of what happened and let them handle it.
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Post by XtesterX » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:29 pm

recently, Iv'e seen a player quit one game, join another, quit that game, then join a 3rd, just to turn around and quit that one .... before the 1st game was even finished!

3 games, 3 quits... 3 subs?? all in the space of 5 to 10 minutes.

so grandma, your saying hardwood now stops people from quitting numerous games in a row?

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Post by Dust In The Wind » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:42 pm

It has been asked that a feature be installed where one quits a game they cannot join another until the game they quit has finished, However, this is a programming issue/change. If it could be done it would most likely solve that type of persons issues.

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TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Post by grandmaS » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:46 pm

WHAT I am saying XtesterX is that not just NOW but for some time now SCE has had a system in place to penilize quitters. Everytime they quit a game whether it be one game a day or 3 in a row they get a quit marked in their profile, if they get enough quits, which the guy your referring to would pretty fast, they can't join rated games. ALSO, if the player who was their pard gets a sub and WINS the game they don't get the winning points they would have gotten had they stayed in the game. SO in a sense you are punishing them more by gettting a sub then you are by botting their pard and getting yourself a cheap win, and your futher punishing their pard which in many cases especially like the one you just listed did nothing to be treated so rudly first by their pard and secondly by you.

I'm not saying wait all day for a sub either, I mean let them say in the lobby sub please wait a minute or two and if none comes then go ahead and bot it. I realize at times it is very difficult to get a sub, heck there are times late night it is hard to get enough players to fill a game. But during most of the day and evening it seems to be pretty easy to get a sub.

Also as far as a "ringer" goes how do you know they are a "ringer" ? IF the player who is subbing joined the game initally would you have refused to allow them to play? And nothing vested in the game? Don't most players play to win even if they are subs? Odd set of circumstances to me that someone would come into sub and deliberately lose, or and I missing something here?
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Post by Runt » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:54 pm

I think we've all seen this many times... the player that did not quit deserves the chance to get a sub. It's rude to bot a seat, unless it is of your own partner and you wish to have a bot pard.

I saw this yesterday, a table player that quit/or booted n the other team automatically botted the seat. The other player was asking n the lobby for a real sub. They wanted one. A couple of us made our way into the room to help that person and the other team refused to kick the bot. They didn't say a word, a guide came in, the team still said nothing nor would kick the bot. So eventually the game was abandoned. Which is fair to all. No one lost anything but maybe 15 minutes of their day.

Why is that so hard to understand!!? Lawd put urself in that other players shoes. Had it been you who was given a bot pard when you wanted a real one, you'd be just as upset as that person was. It has absolutely nothing to do with the pard that left, it's respectful to the one who stayed to give them an option for a real sub and not some computer.

As I see it... the host can bot a seat if the person who would have to pard the bot says they want a bot. Or if you have both players in the other team leave the table. Beyond that it's plain rude, and so what if the TOS or you're own option as the table host gives you the right? It doesn't give you the right to be unfair and mean.

Sorry, but I hate seeing folks get stuck like that, specially during those times when guide coverage is sparce. The blues can't be here all the time, so maybe using one's heart instead of their ego or azz would help out in those times.

Ok... off this soap box I stole from okie... :shock:
Hugs - Runt

And also... there are a lot more people who are willing to sub even when we dont feel like playing a full game. I'm one of em... and I know a lot of people who will do the same thing. Askin n the lobby aint that hard... Can we get a sub? 16 lil letters can save ya sometimes...
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Post by Nana3 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:37 pm

OK now you want the real story,
I was called to table, the opps pard had booted and a bot put in I kicked the bot and immediately a bot was put back, this happened 4 times in a row fast as i kicke tater would rebot it.
I told him if you bot it again without giving him a change to get a sub I will kick this whole table. the score was very close at the time, when the hand was finished with the bot of course the host team went ahead, I kicked the bot again, and when he put a bot back the opp said i do not want a bot give me a chance to get a sub,
I than told tater (he was under the nic intellimouse at the time)that if he put a bot back in i would kick the table this was not fair. well I kick the bot and he put it back. So I kicked the table. and I did file a report on it to Jason.
Tater took it to the lobby and me and Zeus both told him you need to give the oop time to find a sub. 3 min is not to long to wait. and they usually wait at least 3 min, some wait longer, there were couple there as watcher who could have sub but didn't have time to click to get in as it was botted back to fast.
Tater IM me and I explained to him in IM but he was not happy with that.
I also told him when a guide ask him to stop he needs to stop and that is in the rules, of course we had to find that rule and show it to him. and he still wanted to argue the point.
But if I had it to do over, I would Kick the table again if a person keeps botting when I ask them 3 or 4 times to stop and give them a chance.
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Post by omni_555 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:38 pm

LOL ...It's like we are hearing about two TOTALLY DIFFERENT incidents!!!

In the case of the first one, where a host bots a seat and is immediately booted from the game, it seems that this action is VERY unfair!

In the second case, a host is REFUSING to allow a player time to get a sub, and repeatedly ignores the requests of a Guide to do so, and is THEN kicked from the game... No WAIT!!! HE is not kicked from the game (that is what I would probably have done in that situation!!!)! The WHOLE TABLE is kicked, and the game abandoned!!!

...Isn't it amazing how two people can view the SAME SITUATION in such TOTALLY DIFFERENT ways?!!!

Like I said in my previous post, a little common decency can go a LONG WAYS to resolving many of these problems!

...I was just thinking of a previous site (now defunct) that I used to play at before coming to HW. The way THEY handled the situation where players left was quite different!!! If a player left, a 7-minute timer started. If the player didn't return, or if a sub couldn't be found, in that time, the game was forfeited by the team with the missing player. This was done AUTOMATICALLY, and there was no responsibility taken by the host of the game or anyone else for the outcome. Everyone KNEW what to expect, and there were seldom ANY complaints.

Sometimes I think that PART of the problem here at HW is simply that the SCE crew is just TOO patient and forgiving!!! maybe if something were put into place where the Server handled disputes automatically (like in the situation I described at the "other" site...) people could get on with playing the games and spend a little less time ARGUING about how someone ARBITRARILY made decisions that had a negative impact on them!

It's nice to put control in the hands of RESPONSIBLE players. The problem is that SOME players simply are NOT responsible enough to HANDLE it, and even if they ARE, there are others who will dispute the actions taken if it APPEARS that a choice was made by someone other than themselves.

Take an example... You check out at a local store where it is posted that NO checks are accepted. You see the person ahead of you pay for her purchases with a check, so you go pick up a few extra items that you didn't get before because you didn't have enough cash to pay for them. When it is YOUR turn, YOU write out a check to pay for YOUR purchases, but the check is refused by the clerk. Would it not prevent harsh words and bad feelings if the cash register were simply NOT EQUIPPED to accept checks, and then the clerk would not have to decide between "doing a favor" for a friend by accepting a check and then incurring the ire of another customer by REFUSING the same form of payment?

I'm not suggesting that the ability for a host to bot a seat be removed entirely, but maybe it should be limited in some way. Maybe like the limitation that a player cannot be kicked until he has been idle for 2 minutes (I think that is the rule...), similarly a host could not bot a seat until the seat had been empty for at least 2 minutes. At least that would give the player a chance to find a sub. 8)
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Post by grandmaS » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:58 pm

I like that idea very much Omni, :) I think in all fairness a 2 minute wait for a sub is common courtesy. But not everyone feels that way.
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Post by omni_555 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:11 pm

The BIG PLUS about the idea is that NO ONE is to blame for holding up the game, so NO ONE can get MAD at anyone else!!! I would probably suggest taking it even a step FURTHER! If the Software is set up so that there is a 2-minute wait before a seat can be botted, and then a bot is automatically placed, no one can complain that they were unfairly treated, cause EVERYONE in that same situation would be treated the SAME way, and no one has to take the rap for being the "bad guy" who botted the seat!!! 8)
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Post by Meliciouss » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:07 pm

:D So umm y do we have the bot option?
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