Tired of this

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grandmaS
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Post by grandmaS » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:55 pm

We have the option, so that if no sub is available a bot can be used to finish the game. We have it also so like say its the last hand and one team is way ahead and no one wants to wait for a sub to come so they can finish the game off.

We also have it for timed games like mirrors where the clock could be close to running out and waiting for a sub late night is a lost cause lol

I can think of lots of times when a bot comes in handy, but I can also tell you there are lots of times when a live player would work out much better.

After all if we all just wanted to play bots we wouldn't bother going on line at all :)

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Post by XtesterX » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:16 am

the problem with subs in some cases is this.

players A & B agree to play a game with players C & D, all four being at similer skill lever... let's say for our example 1500

After 3 hands, Player C, for whatever reason, decides that she not longer
wishes to play, and leaves the game early.. note that 9 times out of 10, quitter is on losing team...

now comes the problem of finding a sub of EQUAL skill... the only fair solution...

is it fair to player D to be forced to partner with a bot?? if player D knew player C has a history of not finishing games, then it's fair...

on the flip same, is it fair to force players A & B to except a player of greater skill than player C as a sub? ... should they be forced to play with a 'ringer'?

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Post by Vidurr » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:31 am

My partner boots, quits, leaves....unknown what happened.

I look around and find two or three people I have partnered before and ask one to come sub.

Before they get to the table, player X, sits. I ask X to leave as I have a sub in the room waiting to click in. They won't leave. I vote to kick. The opponents won't kick.

A guide is called. The Guide says play on. I say, I have a sub if X will leave. The Guide says play on.

The Guide then kicks me.

:shock:

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Post by omni_555 » Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:10 am

Meliciouss wrote::D So umm y do we have the bot option?
...GOOD question!!! Maybe we should ELIMINATE it in online rated games?!!!

No, really! The bot option can be useful IF NOT ABUSED like it is sometimes.
Vidurr wrote:My partner boots, quits, leaves....unknown what happened.

I look around and find two or three people I have partnered before and ask one to come sub.

Before they get to the table, player X, sits. I ask X to leave as I have a sub in the room waiting to click in. They won't leave. I vote to kick. The opponents won't kick.

A guide is called. The Guide says play on. I say, I have a sub if X will leave. The Guide says play on.

The Guide then kicks me.
THIS is another example entirely!!! IMHO, if a player leaves, there SHOULD be no option for the remaining player to SPECIFY who takes that seat. As long as it is a "warm body" I would think that the situation has been resolved!

We can't always have everything we want, and being able to refuse one sub in favor of another just seems to be ridiculous! It might not cause much of a problem if the "desired sub" is right there, but what if he is not immediately available? Should the other players wait for you to go look for him? And if so, how LONG should everyone wait? A few seconds? A minute? 5 minutes? A half hour?!!!

No matter HOW the situation is ultimately resolved, SOMEONE is going to have a complaint at some point. I have been in games where my partner has had to leave for some reason, and there has been someone "watching" whom I would have liked to sub. But before s/he could get a chance to click on the seat, ANOTHER player has clicked in, sticking me with someone I did not really care for as a partner. I made the best of it and simply typed into chat "<Player>, we will get together for a game after this one is finished." ...And then I finished out the game. Not my FIRST choice of how I wanted things to turn out, but then "beggars can't be choosers!!!" And the way I looked at it, at least I didn't have a BOT as a partner!!!

Vidurr, in your case here you HAD a legal sub sitting in your absent partner's seat, and refusing to play constituted an unreasonable delay of game, a circumstance for which you CAN be kicked from the game.

...I know, the seated sub SHOULD probably have had the decency to leave if he knew that he wasn't wanted, but if I were the host in that game and a player rudely asked a player who had volunteered to sub to leave the game, I would probably have just botted the seat immediately and gone on with the game if that player DID leave!!!

I dunno, it just seems to me that there should be a little "give and take" on BOTH sides of this issue. 8)
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Post by Vidurr » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:41 am

...I know, the seated sub SHOULD probably have had the decency to leave if he knew that he wasn't wanted, but if I were the host in that game and a player rudely asked a player who had volunteered to sub to leave the game, I would probably have just botted the seat immediately and gone on with the game if that player DID leave!!!
As Paul Harvey would say, "...and now the rest of the story"...

I had a sub sitting in the room, waiting to click in. Player X beat my sub by .00005 seconds.

I asked nicely a couple times for X to leave as I had a sub. X would not leave. I asked the opponents to kick X as I had a sub. The opponents would not.

IMHO a reasonable approach would be for X to leave. The sub was there and waiting. I would think a Guide would see that as a reasonable solution also.

Why didn't the Guide ask X to leave ? Just because X arrived .00005 seconds quicker ?

A reasonable person would have left. A reasonable guide would have asked X to leave.

The crowning glory was after I was kicked by the guide; X then left. :-) Both seats were botted. :-) X even said in the lobby "anything for a friend" speaking to the opponents still in the room. :-)

When I questioned the guide (in the dark room where nobody goes...) they saw nothing wrong with any of this behavior. :-) I could file a report if I wanted, but they would not because that's just the way it is on HW. :-)

It did alter my thinking on quitters and changed how I handle quitters. The use of reason is not even a factor.

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Post by RubyHeart » Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:35 pm

Vidurr wrote:
A reasonable person would have left. A reasonable guide would have asked X to leave.



It did alter my thinking on quitters and changed how I handle quitters. The use of reason is not even a factor.
I can understand that.

I used to play with a person that had dial-up and well, you know how that goes. Everytime he disconnected, I would dread it. You never know if your opps are nice enough to allow you a sub, or if you DO get one, how they'll play it out. As soon as the stalling started, I'd call in for a sub from the lobby. Sometimes they'd make it in, but most of the time they didn't. I'd get the random person.

I'd ask the random if they'd mind leaving, as my sub had been sitting there for a couple minutes. Most were agreeable, some were not. And what am I going to do about it? Nothing..Finish out my game.


Yes, a nice, reasonable person would bail if you asked them nicely. But some get offended and figure they're going to sit there, they're doing YOU a favor, and you're going to just deal with it. And the others don't even have their chat window open to know what you're saying(that'd be me most of the time).

If you(and I'm speaking generally, not specifically), are holding up the game insisting on a particular sub, the opps have the right to initiate a kick, or whoever else is doing it.

The guide's goal is getting the game to continue smoothly(lol, well at least somewhat) at a decent pace. So long as you actually get the chance for a human sub, the game should continue.
Last edited by RubyHeart on Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by omni_555 » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:28 pm

EXCELLENT post RubyHeart!!! Sometimes we do not get exactly what we WANT out of life, and we have to accept what we DO get.

In the case of a partner leaving, there are several things to consider:

1) The host has the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to bot the seat immediately. This is not a very SPORTING thing to do, but if he chooses to exercise that option then he is acting within his rights.

2) When a player leaves, there is no provision for the remaining player of that team to get the exact sub that he WANTS. If the host permits a sub and a warm body sits in the seat, then the game continues. REMEMBER, the host COULD have simply botted the seat to begin with!

People have a number of different reactions to losing a partner, or to being on the OTHER team when a player leaves, or even to sitting in as a sub. I have had experience with ALL of these situations.

First of all, if my partner leaves for some reason, I will ASK the host if I may have a little time to get a sub. If he agrees, then I will either make a general request for a sub in the lobby, or I will ask someone specifically to join me. However, if a DIFFERENT player than the one I have asked happens to sit first, I will either ask the sub if he would mind giving up the seat to my friend, and if not then I simply thank the person I asked for trying, apologize that we couldn't finish this game together, and proceed to finish the game and wipe the floor with my opponents!!!

Now, if it was ME who had to leave the game, I have no say in the matter, and so I do not get involved.

Finally, if I am a sub, what I do when I enter a game in progress is to first of all ASK the other players if they "need a hand". I wait until I get a reply that I am welcome in the game, and then I proceed to play my best game! Often, I end up staying after that game ends to play another game with these people. On the other hand, if someone (and I usually listen to the person sitting across from me in situations like this) says that someone else is coming to sit, I wish all good luck and leave. But that is how I handle the situation. Other subs might consider that when they sit they have the right to stay, even against the wishes of others at the table. And according to HW rules, they are RIGHT!
Vidurr wrote:I had a sub sitting in the room, waiting to click in. Player X beat my sub by .00005 seconds.

I asked nicely a couple times for X to leave as I had a sub. X would not leave. I asked the opponents to kick X as I had a sub. The opponents would not.

IMHO a reasonable approach would be for X to leave. The sub was there and waiting. I would think a Guide would see that as a reasonable solution also.
Yes, I agree that it appears to not be an unreasonable request, BUT the host is still in control of the table, and in the final analysis, as long as he is abiding by the Rules and the TOS then HE should have the final word.
Vidurr wrote:Why didn't the Guide ask X to leave ? Just because X arrived .00005 seconds quicker ?
Yup! You GOT it!!! HE got there, and the seat is now HIS if he wants to stay!!!

Vidurr wrote:A reasonable person would have left. A reasonable guide would have asked X to leave.
Yes, a reasonable person would probably have left. After all, why would he WANT to stay in a game where his presence is not WANTED... BUT a reasonable Guide would have stayed OUT of the situation until delay of game became a problem, and then should act against whoever was causing the delay (and I do NOT mean the sub for wanting to stay!!!).
Vidurr wrote:The crowning glory was after I was kicked by the guide; X then left. Both seats were botted. X even said in the lobby "anything for a friend" speaking to the opponents still in the room.
OK, this is the ONE point that would bother me. IF this is what was said, then it would APPEAR that the sub was in collusion with the opponents. If THAT were the case, then I would have to say that for them to ask a "friend" to sub as YOUR partner with the intention of possibly throwing the game, then we would have a situation for SCE to handle. This should be treated as any other form of cheating. However, in the absence of proof that the sub IS in fact in collusion with the opps, everything I said earlier still stands.
Vidurr wrote:When I questioned the guide (in the dark room where nobody goes...) they saw nothing wrong with any of this behavior. I could file a report if I wanted, but they would not because that's just the way it is on HW.
Again, it all depends on EXACTLY what was said and how everyone behaved in the situation. If you feel that you have been treated unfairly by other players or by a Guide, then by all means file a report and let SCE thrash it out. You won't get the satisfaction of an immediate resolution to your dispute, but then again you didn't get that ANYWAY!!!
Vidurr wrote:It did alter my thinking on quitters and changed how I handle quitters. The use of reason is not even a factor.
I'm not quite sure what you are implying here. I would HOPE that you would not let the actions of others color how YOU would behave in a particular situation. Even tho I have had unwanted subs sit across from me and refuse to leave, I still ask before sitting as a sub myself, and I still allow other players a reasonable time to get a sub for themselves before considering seating a bot. 8)
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Post by XtesterX » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:36 pm

grandmaS wrote: ........<snip>Also as far as a "ringer" goes how do you know they are a "ringer" ? IF the player who is subbing joined the game initally would you have refused to allow them to play?<snip> .....
I would consider a much higher rated player a "ringer"

as omni says "Playing games should be FUN - seek out your own level! Don't frustrate others unnecessarily."

being a 1500 player, if I agree to play a 1500 game, with 1500 players, should I be force to accept a 1600 player as a sub when someone leaves the game?

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Post by grandmaS » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:51 pm

well the thing about that is, under another nick a 1500 player could be a 1800 player and you wouldn't know it :)
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Post by XtesterX » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:40 am

maybe so, but you wont find an 1500 player hiding under an 1800 nic either...

subs, to be fair to ALL, not just the abandioned player, should be of equal skill as the player that quit.

I dout you'd find any 1800 player hiding under a rated 1500 nic either

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Post by Cadienne » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:11 am

Not hiding but made a new nic. :)
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Post by XtesterX » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:14 am

an estabilished 1500??

hardly

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Post by Vidurr » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:13 am

I know several players who partner very well with each other, even to the point of talking strategy or plays after games discussing things that went right or wrong. They have some fairly high ratings.

At the same time, each of these players have some "I don't care" names where they may play anybody. This includes playing 1700 ranks in low games or even prov rooms and then watching their rating nose dive with several losses into 1500.

I do understand the thought about an appropriate player sitting but it's just impossible to tell who is who or what there skill level might be.

In my particular example, I had a sub in the room ready to clik in; when an unkown sat .00005 seconds prior to my sub clicking in.

I disagree that in my situation that the reasonable answer is "you're stuck with whoever sits".

It could have been handled in a reasonable manner; but it wasn't. You just learn to adapt and deal with it how you see fit.

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Post by Just_Ice » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:18 am

Tater was within his legal right to bot that chair. One problem with the guide coming in and dictating this or that is that Tater did not break a rule. I feel the guide can teach and tell Tater it's rude to immediately bot a quitter's chair, but I'm not sure about forcing them to do it. SCE needs to define what it expects for chairs that have been vacated by a player.

The other problem is that the guide doesn't know the whole story behind everything that happened at a table and why a person may have quit. It might be the fault of the remaining partner and therefore Tater would have had less reason to be cooperative. I have immediately botted chairs before, but I only do after I have demonstrated a fair amount of patience. Maybe it was their 3rd or 4th partner and they have caused all of them to leave. If, after that point, a guide came to the table and FORCED me to wait for a sub, that would be unfair.

The "file a complaint" doesn't always work because as in this case it was over and done. It may very well be that SCE agrees with the guide's actions, but that doesn't mean Tater broke a rule. If that's the case then the option needs to be taken away.

Please realize I am not speaking JUST about this situation. I'm saying the possibilities are endless that might make someone bot a chair. It's not always black and white. I don't think always forcing teams to wait for a sub is the answer. In fact, FORCING them may never be the answer. And, I'm not saying this guide always does this because I'm sure she doesn't. If SCE doesn't want us to bot a chair immediately, then they need to fix it where we can't. Until they do that, it will be handled unfairly some of the time. It just will. Guides need to take way more time than necessary to deal with these small, piddly problems because people usually tell the story in such away they appear to be in the right.

Just because people like me think it's best to always wait for a sub doesn't mean others are going to think that way. And, to assume the reason they botted a chair is because they want a cheap win isn't always fair either. There's many, many reasons why someone would bot a chair.

And, Tater, you know better than to take it to the lobby, and you know better than to not listen to the guide. You should have allowed the guide to do her job, even if you disagreed. You were not silenced or kicked because you botted a chair immediately. For the reason you were silenced, you were dealt with fairly. You'll get more sympathy, if that's why you posted it here, if you are open and honest up front. That is, unless you really think you were wrong too?

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Post by omni_555 » Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:00 pm

Just_Ice, as usual you have summed things up very nicely. The key thing to keep in mind here is that Guides do NOT always know what has gone on in a game before they were called in. And even if they are TOLD, just WHO are they to believe if there are discrepancies in the stories?

In my gut, Vidurr, I tend to agree with you that you would EXPECT that a sub that you had waiting should be allowed to join. But there are RULES that SCE has written out to be followed, and even tho not allowing you to have the sub you WANTED for a partner, the host was within his rights to do what he did. The only thing that you can do is remember who that host was, and possibly avoid playing with him in the future.

Oh yeah... PLEASE do not let the actions of OTHERS influence how YOU behave in games. Just because you feel that someone ELSE acted like what you consider to be a jerk, do not let that behavior make YOU act like a jerk also!!! There IS such a thing as integrity, and remember that it is extremely hypocritical to expect someone to behave one way and for you to behave in another.

Bottom line, play the game and have fun. And take those who do things differently from you with a grain of salt. After all, we are not all the same, and different people simply do things differently. If you disagree with how someone handles the situation, report the behavior to the appropriate channels and let THOSE people have the headache of handling it, if necessary. 8)
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