3rd seat last hand bidding again

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Galt
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3rd seat last hand bidding again

Post by Galt » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:33 pm

OK, I played this game today and lost because my pard (a 1900 player by the way) made the wrong bid sitting 3rd seat on the last hand.

I bet that a bunch of you can do better...

Score is us 461 opps 444

The bids coming to you are 3 from me and 4 from East.

You are not allowed to look at your cards. You have only 2 possible bids to choose from.... what are they?
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Post by MrAnderson » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:54 pm

3 or nil that are the choices you have. If you bid 3 the opps need to have a 7 team bid makes the total bid to 14 or need a nil to win. If you bid less than 3 you give opps a chance to bid 6 team bid and win by bags. If you bid higher you add risk you don't need in this situation except West bids nil, of course. Even West bids nil u have 3 chances to set him.
The final choice, 3 or nil, you just can do when you see your cards.
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Galt
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Post by Galt » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:33 pm

Father definitely does know best.

My pard bid 2, allowing the opps to bid to 7, and forcing us to win 7 tricks in order to not lose.

Bidding to 6 (forcing the opps to win 8 tricks) would have allowed us to win the game by winning 6 tricks.

The worst part is we did indeed have 6 tricks.

Third seat last hand bidding is soooo very critical to winning Spades.
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Post by omni_555 » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:38 pm

Yup... 2 was DEFINITELY a losing bid there! Many players simply do not see that whether they bid the extra point or NOT that they will NEED to get it in order to win the game!

Your partner should have taken just a few seconds to consider the possible options of a few bids. Even if after looking at his cards he saw that nil was out of the question and he only saw two POSSIBLE tricks, a quick calculation should have revealed that if East bid a simple 2-bid here all he has to do is MAKE it and the game is theirs! In order to win, N/S MUST be capable of taking AT LEAST 6 tricks, unless East also makes a "stupid" bid, and MORE if North bids too LOW!!!

And you just CANNOT count on the stupidity of your opponents to win the game for you! 8)
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2 missing

Post by Nickway170g » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:33 am

Wrong, you dont have only 2 possible bids. You have 4 possible bids.
What are the 2 missing possible bids ?
Just some thoughts from me.

Nick.

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Galt
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Post by Galt » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:52 am

If you have a massive hand you can be 7 and assume a Nil and a set of the cover bid.

In practice, though, you should go into this bid expecting to bid Nil or 3, with the 3 requirement being the critical understanding.
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Post by Just_Ice » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:38 am

Well, I don't know about "wrong." Sure, there are more than 4 possible bids that will allow you to win the game, depending on your hand. If you can bid 10 and your team pull all 13 you can win.

But, the point of this thread is well made. If you're going to bid 2 here, you have an option to bid 3 or nil. Bidding 2, regardless if you only see 2 tricks in your hand, is a losing bid.

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Post by SybiL » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:46 am


I love playing spades !!!!

But oh, you have no idea how much I hate being in the 3rd seat on last hand! Gosh I feel so stupid :cry:

People have so much pressure at that moment and for some reason feels like the brain decides to take a break for a few, the blood seems to run all over your body except were you need it at that particular moment.

Don`t ya just sometimes wish a minute had 260 seconds just for that darn ugly moment of stress?
:roll:

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Post by Galt » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:26 am

... or a book in which there was a table showing what you had to bid in every possible situation

sorry, couldn't resist.

The way to figure this out pretty fast is the following…

Forget about the actual score. Just look at the difference between the 2 scores.

You need to determine if you are 10 behind, 20 behind, 30 behind, etc., or 10 ahead, 20 ahead, 30 ahead etc.

Examples:

1. Us 461 Opps 444 … we are effectively 20 ahead

2. Us 464 Opps 441 … we are effectively 30 ahead

3. Us 423 Opps 465 … we are effectively 50 behind

4. Us 425 Opps 463 … we are effectively 40 behind

Before any bids are made we know that we must bid, in order of the above…

1. The opps must outbid us by 20. If our team bids 5 or less, the opps can outbid us by 2 without taking the bid to 13 Therefore, we must bid to 6. 2X + 2 = at least 13. X = 6.

2. The opps must outbid us by 30. If our team bids 4 or less, the opps can outbid us by 3 without taking the bid to 13. Therefore, we must bid to 5. 2X + 3 = at least 13. X = 5.

3. We must outbid the opps by 50. If we bid to 8 or less, the opps can get within 4 of us without taking the bid to 13. Therefore, we must bid to 9. 2X - 4 = at least 13. X = 9

4. We must outbid the opps by 40. If we bid to 7 or less, the opps can get within 3 of us without taking the bid to 13. Therefore, we must bid to 8. 2X – 3 = at least 13. X = 8.

Even though I did not show it in these examples, you can get the same answer in more than one situation. For example, if we need to gain only 30 points, the correct bid is also 8. Go through the above process and you will see this result.

Hope this helps.
Last edited by Galt on Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nickway170g
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2 more bids

Post by Nickway170g » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:00 pm

If you have a very strong hand and you want to set cover you bid 5, no more than 5.
You have a very strong hand. Very strong hand but not a nilsetting hand. You dont think you can set cover so you are afraid last bidder will nil and they win game. Bid 1 and hope he will not nil.

If your lucky to have a pard that are able to understand there are 4 bids you can make he understands what kind of hand you have when you bid nil, 1, 3 or 5. Never bid 2 or 4with this hand as it will only confuse your pard. 6 and more will only increase the chance you get set due to strange distribution.

Nil, 1, 3 or 5 should be considered.
Just some thoughts from me.

Nick.

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Post by Galt » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:22 pm

NIck, I can't say that I agree with either of those bids, which is why I did not include any other bids in my post. Those bids are a matter of opinion and can be argued one way or the other. I would not bid 5 and I would not bid 1. They can both lead to ambiguity. That is just my opinion however.

A bid of 3 or Nil is technically correct and cannot be argue against.
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Post by x MISSY x » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:52 pm

I would have to see my hand to decide what I would bid...Whatever the score is I would make them take it to a 14 bid or nil.. The whole point of 3rd seat biddin is to make the 4th seat bid what you want....with a 3 bid you force the 4th seat into a nil or a 14 bid.
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Post by omni_555 » Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:08 am

EXACTLY! The score can't always determine exactly what your bid will be without ever looking at your cards, but it SHOULD determine a number of bids that you DEFINITELY SHOULD NOT MAKE regardless of the cards you hold!

In galt's example, I agree with 3 or nil being the only 2 bids worth considering, and which one of THESE you pick would depend on the cards you hold.

In some cases even an "impossible" bid is warranted to force the opps into an error. For instance, if you hold a PERFECT nil hand except for the Spade A but you can see by the score that ANY bid other than nil will allow the opps to win, then a "sacrifice nil" would be the way to go here. And since we are talking about 3rd hand bidding, this is the ONLY bid that MIGHT force the last bidder to overbid his hand and give you a CHANCE at setting the opps!

I'm still smarting from using that specific technique in a game quite a while back, and when my partner saw me play the Spade A he spent about 5 minutes zapping me with fooms, berating my playing skills, and quit the game. Even tho the result of the hand (with a sub) was that we SET the opps and went on to WIN that game!

"Short term pain for long term gain" seem to be an unknown phrase for many people!!! 8)
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Bid

Post by Nickway170g » Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:40 am

Galt, If you are first bidder and your pard (third bidder) bids 3 and got a monsterhand do you know what to do if last bidder bids nil ? Nope, you dont know if you should try to set nil or cover. Both can be a good choise. If you chose the wrong lead based on his 3 bid you might not be able to set the cover if thats what you should have done. 5 bid is the solution to this.

You dont have to force the last bidder to take it to 14 when you make it crystalclear to pard you want to set cover. Let him nil, dont bother to set the nil. pretend its not there and Go for cover on trick one.

Missy, i agree you should look at your hand before you make the bid. All you need to know before its your turn to bid is you have 4 bids to chose from. Then you done a little preparation and the timer will not ''go that fast''
Just some thoughts from me.

Nick.

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Post by omni_555 » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:33 am

...I still don't know about the wisdom of that 5-bid. You would be taking the table bid to 12, making it LESS risky for the remaining player to bid nil if he has any decent chance at a nil. And if he has a sure 1 and a possible 2, there is a VERY good chance that you will get set.

Just seems like there are a lot more risks to your side with a 5-bid here.

And as for the 1-bid, it allows the opps to take their side to 7 for the win!!!

Unless you have a PHENOMENAL hand and are CERTAIN of being able to set a 4-bid by the opps (in case other opp bids nil) then I would still have to go along with galt and say that the only practical bids here are 3 or nil, depending on your hand.

You just convinced me of any real advantages that could be gained by the 1 or 5 bids that would make them worth the extra risk. 8)
Playing games should be FUN - seek out your own level! Don't frustrate others unnecessarily. 8)

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