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grandmaS
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Post by grandmaS » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:27 pm

It depends on your perception as to whether changing rooms was a good thing or not. If you play straight spades sure it is, if you like to play a variety, or love mirrors no it wasn't.

Before splitting the rooms you could get a game of mirrors or suicide any time of the day or not and since the split that simply isn't true. Many have gone on to find other games to play because of that split, some when they can't find enough players in Wizards to play with go play straight spades or play pass and make up their own suicide rules.

But the fact remains the split wasn't good for everyone and I'm not so sure it was good for Hardwood, did it need to be done, well because of the amount of players we were getting something had to be done, was this the best answer who knows, the straight spades players are still complaining because the pass players are still in THEIR room.

Sad but true, you can never make everyone happy no matter what you do.
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Dust In The Wind
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:29 pm

I still say as far as the Provie system goes to keep it for the truely new players and omit it for the established player making a new nic and start it the same 1500, It will balance out.

Leagues are an answer to game specific demands like no fooms, high rated only, etc. Make a league with certain features and see how many players join..... if there IS a lot of support for that the league will prosper and more will form, otherwise it will die.

I like most variations of spades and I love the fact I have a choice and that is in all the games. I have play at sites where only the standard game is offered and nothing more, I don't play there anymore because I like the variety and be able to say wow those look like some good players and even though it is not my usual cup-of-whiskey (I don't drink tea) I will play it.

Kicking in it's abusive form is a minority, kicking for rating a little more so, but most games are played without kicking of any sort.... you just don't hear about it because there is no complaint (the silent happy majority).

I have played at many other sites, each had it's own features that I liked or disliked, but this is where I choose to stay.

JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Post by Primal Instincts » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:53 pm

Dust In The Wind wrote: Kicking in it's abusive form is a minority, kicking for rating a little more so, but most games are played without kicking of any sort.... you just don't hear about it because there is no complaint (the silent happy majority).
Exactly....well put Dust....

It's on a rare occasion I have to kick anyone and I think in all the year's I have been in HW I have used the kick button maybe 10 time's and Im sure half of that was for a problem player.....
8)
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Post by abcba123 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:02 am

For some reason, there is a system in place which, while providing virtually nothing of value that could not be provided through simple social games, discourages higher rated players from playing there nics, encourages a multitude of nics, encourages the rude treatment of players, encourages higher skilled players to leave, and maybe most important of all, encourages a false perception of HW outside of the HW coomunity (among a huge percentage of the Spading population) that is a gamesite where virtually nobody knows how to play Spades.
I guess I don't hang around people who think the HW coomunity is a gamesite where virtually noboby knows how to play Spades.

Especially when they think it is ALL BECAUSE OF THE PROV system.

Give me a break.

I have yet to talk to a single person that blamed their departure from HW on the PROV system.

More often than not they don't want to spend the money. They don't like the fact that HW has Guides that censure their potty mouths. They don't like to play pass, cut, suicide or mirrors.

But never have I heard someone say; I'm leaving because I was a PROV.

The people I talk to in the spades coomunity find HW to be a nice graphics oriented gamesite which offers several other card games. But don't want to pay for what they can play for FREE.

That's the biggest gripe out there.

Some people will never be happy at HW until HW bows to their desire to make HW a regular only high rated game site at the expense of the majority of players who currently play on HW.

I think the point made was that HW has doubled it's size despite all these spades elite that talk negatively about the HW coomunity.

Some folks prefer HW; and others prefer unrated social game sites.

To each their own.
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Post by Primal Instincts » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:21 am

You wont find me leavin HW for any reason....I think it's the best site anywhere and I dont have a problem with any part of it....altho I would like to see an arrow foom..... 8)
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Post by Absolutely » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:44 am

GrandmaS
It depends on your perception as to whether changing rooms was a good thing or not. If you play straight spades sure it is, if you like to play a variety, or love mirrors no it wasn't.
Exactly correct GrandmaS. This left a sour feeling in alot of players mouths. The whole forum discussion at that time centered around some rather harsh posts by some who still complain now. To say that people got over it is incorrect.

The best suggestion so far for those complainers has already been made:

Vidurr
FORM A LEAGUE.

If there is that many people out there that want what you want; then a LEAGUE should not be a problem to create.

The LEAGUE CONTROLS everything. You want HIGH RATE ONLY ? Make it your rule. You DON'T want PROV games ? Make it your rule. You don't even need FOOMS or CHAT. Ban the use of such in YOUR league.
:-) YA'LL REALLY CRACK ME UP !!! :-)

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Post by omni_555 » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:41 am

Galt wrote:Hmm, I think that the reason that approximately half of the players are below the average rating is because that is exactly what one would expect from a statistical standpoint.

I don't recall saying anything about anybody complaining about HW.

I do recall when HW had fewer players than it did today, it was before the rooms were changed. At that time we had all of the same reactions to that suggestion...

HW was perfect the way that it was, changing the rooms would destroy all of the fun that everybody was having, changing the rooms would benefit only the high rated players, people who didn't like HW the way that it was should just go play someplace else, and on and on and on.

All that turned out to be true was that changing the rooms turned out to be a good thing for HW and everybody who plays here, and has helped to facilitate the nice growth that the site has experienced.

Doing away with the provie system, over time, would do exactly the same thing.

Will HW continue to be a great site if this change is never made???... of course it will.

Would it be better in the long run if this system, which arbitrarily forces players to play in games that are often grossly mismatched and in which they often are playing even though they don't really want to, and which, by the way, most likely slows the process of a player achieving an accurate rating, was to be phased out?

It's hard to imagine how it couldn't.
OK, I just HAD to respond here!!!

Galt, I have a great deal of respect for you as a Spades player. I think that you know quite a bit about the game - the technical aspects of it at least.

BUT I have not played Spades on HW for well over a year now - around the time when the fiasco of splitting the rooms was implemented (I have been playing Hearts ever since...). I have, however, remained faithful to the board, and have continued to post where I thought that my input could possibly have some value here.

I could say that YOU drove me from HW Spades. No, I don't think that you did it maliciously, and it was totally MY choice to leave. However, I cannot let go unchallenged your claim that "changing the rooms turned out to be a good thing for HW and everybody who plays here, and has helped to facilitate the nice growth that the site has experienced". IMHO, the growth has occurred IN SPITE of the changes that were made.

There were many threads at the time discussing these changes, and a few comments have been made in THIS thread about how some of the people who stayed after that change have not had the same enjoyable experience that they previously enjoyed.

Splitting off regular Spades from the other variants was the desire of only a relatively few players. I was sad when SCE went along with it, but I guess they just finally caved in to the voracious demands that kept being presented as the wishes of the majority. From my own discussions with players then and since, I have not encountered more than a small handful of players who would have voted for the change, and even these would not have been upset if the change had not been made. So, WHO were the real beneficiaries of the "improved HW"???

Getting rid of the Provie system is also, IMHO, a total crock! I will agree that there ARE probably some arguments for getting rid of it, BUT there are even MORE arguments in favor of KEEPING it!!! Personally, I can see no problem for a player who resets a nick or creates a new one to go through the 20-game provie role in order to "validate" the new nick (or newly reset nick).

ONE thing that I would GUARANTEE if the provie system disappeared would be that there would be a GREAT MANY MORE provie nicks floating around, and it would be even HARDER to get a high-rated game going!!!

For a player who complains about how HW is "ratings driven", galt, you seem to be very protective of YOUR high rated nicks yourself... Why not take THOSE nicks into "lower" games and play? You might be surprised at the quality of the competition you would find.

But no, you don't think that you would get good competition from those low-rated players. ...What I don't understand is HOW removing the provie system is going to magically create a whole group of high-rated players to form those games you are so desperately seeking??? Is it that you know SO MANY good players who boycott HW simply because they would have to demean themselves by playing 20 games as a Provie??? That is about the only answer I can think of right here...

One final thought... There are a LOT of "changes" that I would personally like to see in HW. However, these changes have not proven to be overwhelmingly popular to the general population of the site, and so after a brief presentation and discussion, I have dropped them. After all, the site is supposed to be FOR THE PLAYERS (note the "S" there!).

And in closing, even tho I do not play Spades on HW any more, I still think that it is probably the best card-gaming site on the internet. Further, I would like to point out that I am not staying away out of spite or childishness, but simply because one of the main things that I enjoyed about playing Spades (the ability to switch up on the fly among the different types of games - Reg, Pass, Mirrors, Suicide) was taken away. No biggie. I just didn't enjoy the Spades site enough anymore, and I went to Hearts, where I am quite content with the fewer rooms they have there.

OK, they also have fewer players, but numbers was NOT the main problem at the Spades site, and numbers problems were NOT resolved by the change. 8)
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Dust In The Wind
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:08 am

I'd like to see a "BIRD FOOM" ........ little birdy flys over intended victum and OOOOPPPPPSSSS!!!!

LOL

JUST DUST

PS - Hows that for a change???


PS - OK OK how about if da birdy picks them and drops them in the center of the table........
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Post by abcba123 » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:15 am

Omni
I could say that YOU drove me from HW Spades. No, I don't think that you did it maliciously, and it was totally MY choice to leave. However, I cannot let go unchallenged your claim that "changing the rooms turned out to be a good thing for HW and everybody who plays here, and has helped to facilitate the nice growth that the site has experienced". IMHO, the growth has occurred IN SPITE of the changes that were made.

There were many threads at the time discussing these changes, and a few comments have been made in THIS thread about how some of the people who stayed after that change have not had the same enjoyable experience that they previously enjoyed.
Bingo Omni.

I also took a sabbatical from HW Spades. I just went back to look up another thread which I "bumped up". There was a cheated nic, where we were told ACTION was taken. I happened to see the nic again ONLINE over a YEAR LATER and it's record is intact as well as it's rating. If ACTION was taken; then HW is not doing enough.

I was also frustrated with the comments made by certain people in regards to the lobby changes and their opinion of players who played other variations of spades besides regular. As far as I am concerned; that has been the biggest mess this Forum has seen.

There is an elitist attitude by certain players in regards to what they want HW to be. They could care less about what effect it has on others.

The growth in HW is because of the variation of spades games other than Regular. That was one of the messages I got from looking at the HW Data again over a year and half later. There is still only 20% of the games played on HW as regular. Despite the conviction of the elitist who thought everybody wanted to stay in Smoots and play Regular. Obviously the players did not want too; and still don't.

It's also not because of the Prov system. My guess, players play what they LIKE to play. In many cases players on HW SWITCH between different variations of the game. I know I used to play many different types of games depending on where my partners or friends might be playing.

I did not have the NEED to play JUST REGULAR spades. I also think that is the way a majority of HW players feel.

There is no need to change something that has worked and been successful to just appease 2% of the players on HW or the Internet for that matter.
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Post by omni_555 » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:27 am

Just to add a point to what I said before, I realize that HW Spades community has grown over the past year or so. However, my contention is that it would have grown EVEN MORE had the change NOT been implemented. AND there would have been a greater number of MORE CONTENTED "old-time" players hanging out on the site.

Very few of the players who wanted the status quo maintained took the step that I did in leaving Spades. However, I am quite certain that if a survey were done among the players who were present at the time of the change and who remained that it would be found that their enjoyment of the site diminished substantially AFTER the change. 8)
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Post by abcba123 » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:04 pm

I was involved in several discussions regarding the perceived problems with HW. I think we came up with a rather novel solution.

Rather than doing away with the prov system that many others find valuable; perhaps it would be better to tackle the other end of the spectrum: the 2%.

HW can implement a rating MAX on nics. Such as no nic can go higher than 1700. This way there is no more 1800, 1900, or 2000 rated nics. If you want a high game; 1700 is as high as you can achieve. All existing nics over 1700 will be reset to 1700. Note: this can be done as exampled by HW resetting players prov nics two years ago.

By placing a MAX rating; this would not affect the majority of HW games and combines the 2nd deviation (14%) with those above the 2nd deviation point or 2%; allowing for a greater chance of more games.

No longer will you have a 1900 setting a 1800 table and then switching nics just to manipulate their high ratings. No longer will you have empty 2000 rated tables with nobody to play. No longer will players focus on being in the top 25; because there will probably be thousands of 1700 rated nics. No longer will you have the amount of cheating you see now at the 2% level nor players throwing high rated games because they wanted to be the highest rated nic. No longer will you see the "I'm better than you" arguments; because there will be plenty of 1700 nics. No longer will you have the blame placed on "easy" Cut ratings for the lack of regular games.

A unique idea and worthy of HW consideration for sure. It has no effect on the majority of HW players or games. And addresses the 2% concern for more games.

:lol:
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Post by Primal Instincts » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:26 pm

Limit the rating and no longer will you have the desire to compete to achieve....

If it aint broke......dont fix it....
8)
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Post by MrAnderson » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:34 am

Its hard to say if it was good or not to split up the rooms. On one hand the majority of players complained when they couldnt go into smoots cause the room was full. Now some of the players complain that the rooms got splitted :?

My suggestion: Create a lobby where all players can chat and see the tables. But the tables itself should be on different servers. Then I think you will see more high rated games cause more high rated players see the tables and can decide easily if they want to join a cut, reg, pass 2 or suicide game.

So it would look like this:

Code: Select all

        Lobby server
      /    /    |    \
     /    /     |     \
    /    /      |      \
Smoots Gnome   Cut  Wizards
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Post by SybiL » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:30 am


I don't understand much about servers and what it takes to have them separate, and have a server for each game and then related all in a general lobby that all can read, etc. Sounds like paradise.....

But.... since I know nothing about that kind of stuff, to me it sounds like a very expensive thing to do. Am I wrong? I really dunno much about costs of it and about how much work it will take, and how much will it cost to have people work on it to make it happen, plus new servers?

It just sounds like a whole bunch of expensive stuff that when I think about the $25 one time fee we pay, just makes it sound a lil pretensious from us to expect such changes.

But of course I did hear Jonas won the lottery last month, so maybe we are gonna get the new stuff added for this XMas ;)

Seriously, I think that HW is great the way it is, and lobby separation was a great way to solve a huge problem of saturation that we were having there. Was even getting hard to breathe in smoots with so much people.

Is it the ideal to separate people by games, maybe it is not what we would have prefered, but it sure solved a huge problem and made the space we had more apropiate for the amount of people.

Even more, I insist, we should have a new separation now, we should have a newbies lobby right on top of all lobbies, and that lobby should be the only one offering provisional games. That would be awesome once we get used to such a shock.

No, I am not as nuts as I sound, I just think we have to adjust to the space and find a way to acommodate ourselves in it, at least until someone wins the lotto :lol:

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Post by HEXA » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:17 pm

Even more, I insist, we should have a new separation now, we should have a newbies lobby right on top of all lobbies, and that lobby should be the only one offering provisional games. That would be awesome once we get used to such a shock.
I still disagree..

You are hindering the "tell a friend" way of business this way.

If i bring a newb to the site, it will be so they can play and hang with me and my friends in gnomes while they get rated, not so they are outcasted to a room with strangers by themselves..
My suggestion: Create a lobby where all players can chat and see the tables. But the tables itself should be on different servers.
I dont know if i like this one either.. This puts 600 people chatting together in one lobby. I do not frequent smoots, nor cutt because it's got some (not everyone) serious pottymouths in those rooms. I like that i can get away from those rooms and be among some more mannered folks. Can you imagine the chaos with 600 people chatting in one main lobby?

Why are we in need of changing anything?? I agree the smoots room has struggles.. Because to many squeezing in one room. But why all the other change-suggestions?? Did i miss talk of other troubles??

If smoots over load is the problem there:

http://forums.silvercrk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7870
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