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Absolutely
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Post by Absolutely » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:10 pm

Top Four best ideas so far:

1. Hexa
Why are we in need of changing anything?? ...

2. Primal
If it aint broke......dont fix it....
3. Vidurr
FORM A LEAGUE.

If there is that many people out there that want what you want; then a LEAGUE should not be a problem to create.

4. abc
Rather than doing away with the prov system that many others find valuable; perhaps it would be better to tackle the other end of the spectrum: the 2%...HW can implement a rating MAX on nics. Such as no nic can go higher than 1700...

No longer will you have a 1900 setting a 1800 table and then switching nics just to manipulate their high ratings. No longer will you have empty 2000 rated tables with nobody to play. No longer will players focus on being in the top 25; because there will probably be thousands of 1700 rated nics. No longer will you have the amount of cheating you see now at the 2% level nor players throwing high rated games because they wanted to be the highest rated nic. No longer will you see the "I'm better than you" arguments; because there will be plenty of 1700 nics. No longer will you have the blame placed on "easy" Cut ratings for the lack of regular games.
I'm laughing with abc; the idea that the way to correct a perceived problem at the high end of games is to do away with the low end provs is ridiculous. If there is a problem at the high end; then maxing out the ratings should be a good way to resolve the problem for them.

I'm sure the high end players will be more than willing to make such a change for their own good.
:-) YA'LL REALLY CRACK ME UP !!! :-)

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Just_Ice
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Post by Just_Ice » Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:58 am

The argument against the current Provisional system can take many faces. I, for one, don't mind it on my first nic name. It's intent is to place a player (not a nic name) into an approximate rating area when s/he leaves the Provisional status. With that being the purpose, it seems to contradict the allowance of having more than one nic name. And, if ratings can be reset, what good does it do to place them in a rating area? If they want to go for a higher placement, all they have to do is reset and try again.

Hardwood players typically see the Provisional system for placing nic names, not players. Well, nic names don't click the cards, the players do.

The normal (non-Provisional) rating system will place "nic names" after 20 games anyway. Nic names do not need a Provisional system if you have more than one and can reset them at will. It doesn't work as intended. Provisional is for a game and system like live chess tournaments where you get one "you" and you can not reset yourself. As you invest time and study you get better and move up the scale, if you spend time away you move down (typically).

The argument is that since we want more than one nic name, and since we want the ability to reset ratings at will, then the Provisional system does nothing for you, since it is trying to measure your various nic names and not you. The normal rating system will do just fine at keeping "nic names" in the right rating area. To drive the point home, if you have 2 nic names, and one is 1800 and the other 1500, what is your rating? It has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with your nic name.

One last point. Whether or not the growth came because of the room split, or in spite of it, is something that can never be determined. Jonas can probably give you the best insight for the cause of the growth and the impact the room changes had on it. He measures and tracks that stuff. No doubt that the side favoring the split will say "because of," and the side favoring one room will say "in spite of." The fact is the rooms were split and then the growth happened. I lean 51-49 saying the room split had at least something to do with the growth. Now, this says nothing of which way is "better," because "better" is too subjective. My guess is that whether or not it is "better" will be divided down the same preference line. But, consider this: as the sight grows a room split is inevitable anyway. So, even if the growth came in spite of the room split, the growth would force a room split eventually anyway.

And by the way, focusing on misspelled words is immature, rude, and not good posting ettiquette.

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Post by abcba123 » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:50 am

Just_Ice wrote:The argument against the current Provisional system can take many faces. I, for one, don't mind it on my first nic name. It's intent is to place a player (not a nic name) into an approximate rating area when s/he leaves the Provisional status. With that being the purpose, it seems to contradict the allowance of having more than one nic name. And, if ratings can be reset, what good does it do to place them in a rating area? If they want to go for a higher placement, all they have to do is reset and try again.

Hardwood players typically see the Provisional system for placing nic names, not players. Well, nic names don't click the cards, the players do.

The normal (non-Provisional) rating system will place "nic names" after 20 games anyway. Nic names do not need a Provisional system if you have more than one and can reset them at will. It doesn't work as intended. Provisional is for a game and system like live chess tournaments where you get one "you" and you can not reset yourself. As you invest time and study you get better and move up the scale, if you spend time away you move down (typically).

The argument is that since we want more than one nic name, and since we want the ability to reset ratings at will, then the Provisional system does nothing for you, since it is trying to measure your various nic names and not you. The normal rating system will do just fine at keeping "nic names" in the right rating area. To drive the point home, if you have 2 nic names, and one is 1800 and the other 1500, what is your rating? It has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with your nic name.

One last point. Whether or not the growth came because of the room split, or in spite of it, is something that can never be determined. Jonas can probably give you the best insight for the cause of the growth and the impact the room changes had on it. He measures and tracks that stuff. No doubt that the side favoring the split will say "because of," and the side favoring one room will say "in spite of." The fact is the rooms were split and then the growth happened. I lean 51-49 saying the room split had at least something to do with the growth. Now, this says nothing of which way is "better," because "better" is too subjective. My guess is that whether or not it is "better" will be divided down the same preference line. But, consider this: as the sight grows a room split is inevitable anyway. So, even if the growth came in spite of the room split, the growth would force a room split eventually anyway.

And by the way, focusing on misspelled words is immature, rude, and not good posting ettiquette.
Actually your very initial premise is incorrect Ice. Your arguments in fact supports the need for a Prov system. As your post indicates, the design of HW was not that each player/account would have a single Prov nic.

One of the reasons I paid for HW was because MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY or HOUSEHOLD could use my account. One of the reasons I paid for HW was because I could create multiple nics and characters. So when I first logged onto my FAMILY ACCOUNT and made a nic with MY password; my spouse, significant other, girlfriend, boyfriend, son, daughter or other household member also had the same ability.

I am a good player and might have a 2000 rated nic. My "other" doesn't know a spade from a club and the only time they see 1500 is when they make a new nic. So basing a rating on the first nic that logs onto the account does not work. In fact my FAMILY ACCOUNT does not even know who within my FAMILY is even playing.

ONE of the premises for Prov is to ESTABLISH a rating for that NIC. We already agree on the VALUE of prov for new players.

Another example that you allude too, is the fact that one partner of mine really struggles with the game. But in the process of throwing fooms, laughing, chatting, getting set; we have fun and play regularly together. Those nics may never see 1600. But when I play with SpadesKing or SpadesQueen we have 2000 rated nics.

That's the JOY and FUN of HW.

I understand this concept is difficult for those who only want to play the 2% high rated, regular games. But that is not what HW was marketed or sold as. If that was the case, I would NEVER have BOUGHT HW.

I bought HW for Fun. I bought HW for MY FAMILY. Again, I understand that for the 2%, HW may not be what they want it to be. But that's why there is a TRIAL PERIOD with a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE. Give HW a try, see if you like it. If you don't nothing lost.

There is nothing wrong with the Prov system. I see two great suggestions summarized a couple times for the 2% that are unhappy:

1. Form a league. Form your own rules.
2. Or address the 2% by capping the top ratings.

Much better suggestions than doing away with something that WORKS and adds value to the HW gamesite.

In regards to the GROWTH at HW; I dare say it had NOTHING to do with the lobby split. LOL Somebody actually paid money because Suicide was in it's own lobby ? I doubt it. There was far more to that decision.

The reason for HW's growth is at least twofold:

1. HW is sold and marketed as a FAMILY oriented multi game site not a 2% site. And all the features and graphics support that marketing strategy and growth.

2. HW benefited by the DOWNFALL of OTHER gamesites. How many do we name ? MP, WP and recently the mistake (IMHO) Zone made by changing their lobby setup.

There are very few (IMHO) who came to HW saying I want to buy HW and play 2% games only. HW has NEVER been that type of gamesite. The 2% will always be frustrated at WHATEVER gamesite they go too !

However the MAJORITY of players at HW are quite content. And the SITE continues to GROW !

P.S. Feel free to quote any of my mizspelingz. :lol: I won't be the slightest bit offended. :lol:
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Post by Primal Instincts » Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:30 pm

abcba123 wrote:
I understand this concept is difficult for those who only want to play the 2% high rated, regular games. But that is not what HW was marketed or sold as. If that was the case, I would NEVER have BOUGHT HW.

I bought HW for Fun. I bought HW for MY FAMILY. Again, I understand that for the 2%, HW may not be what they want it to be. But that's why there is a TRIAL PERIOD with a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE. Give HW a try, see if you like it. If you don't nothing lost.

There is nothing wrong with the Prov system. I see two great suggestions summarized a couple times for the 2% that are unhappy:

1. Form a league. Form your own rules.
2. Or address the 2% by capping the top ratings.

Much better suggestions than doing away with something that WORKS and adds value to the HW gamesite.

In regards to the GROWTH at HW; I dare say it had NOTHING to do with the lobby split. LOL Somebody actually paid money because Suicide was in it's own lobby ? I doubt it. There was far more to that decision.

The reason for HW's growth is at least twofold:

1. HW is sold and marketed as a FAMILY oriented multi game site not a 2% site. And all the features and graphics support that marketing strategy and growth.

2. HW benefited by the DOWNFALL of OTHER gamesites. How many do we name ? MP, WP and recently the mistake (IMHO) Zone made by changing their lobby setup.

There are very few (IMHO) who came to HW saying I want to buy HW and play 2% games only. HW has NEVER been that type of gamesite. The 2% will always be frustrated at WHATEVER gamesite they go too !

However the MAJORITY of players at HW are quite content. And the SITE continues to GROW !
Very well said.......... 8)
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Post by sandbar » Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:51 pm

:D Yes, I echo what Primal just said, and this also could go into Hearts as well for those who don't pop into Spades.
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:19 am

I never though of the provie system with more than one user on the account since I am the only one at this time that uses mine and what you say is right abc...... why would/should others ratings within your house be based on your play and why it is per nic.

So I also agree leave it as it is because of those reasons, it's really not hurting anything.

JUST DUST

PS - As I have done in the past create a new nic play my 20 and then build from there.
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Absolutely
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Post by Absolutely » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:17 am

Here's an interesting post from the Euchre Forum and no mention of a Prov Problem:
wolf_139

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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:35 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

take it from a zoner..... i played there for 7 years or so... and they wont come here.... most complained of the cards being garbage and the rest complained of the price
:-) YA'LL REALLY CRACK ME UP !!! :-)

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Midnightguy
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Post by Midnightguy » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:10 pm

Absolutely wrote
Here's an interesting post from the Euchre Forum and no mention of a Prov Problem:

Quote:
wolf_139

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 4

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:35 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

take it from a zoner..... i played there for 7 years or so... and they wont come here.... most complained of the cards being garbage and the rest complained of the price
Well I play at Euchre too, I'm sure some of the players who tried out the site here went through this scenario. They got their brand new 1500 0-0 provie rating start rating. Then they face someone who is 1350 and provie with a losing record say 5-10 and they found out other team got J's every deal. They get shutout 11-0 or lost 10-3 <hell even 13-0 im sure they get a loner with 9-0 score if they wanted to add insult to injury to other team already> ....the team who won might as well put on autoplay because no matter what they have an idiot proof win and could beat even the top masters of euchre with those cards. What kinda fun is that? Just HW's usual way of making sure the deals are stacked against the better players.

My total argument against the provie system isn't because I want high tons of high rated games. What is the point to have tons of high rated names if your not playing them in the first place? Again, I support name limitations and could live with having 5 names max. Five names should be enough for an average family. If everyone had only 5 names, odds are people who are 1800 or 2000 will have a period where their ratings will take a hit and they will come back down to 1600-1700. They will be forced to use those names because they can't just keep recreating another new provie name. I contest this is where our problem lies and if we did away with unlimited names, then you'll see less provie games and more rated games and perhaps see a few higher rated tables because players would be forced to use their high names instead of creating new ones all the time.

I just want a fair game and facing people of equal competition. Coming to either Spades or Euchre then finding mostly the tables all are provies or tables rated 1500 or rated but allows anyone to come doesn't seem to promote the site has skilled players. I know Galt and I talk in the minority here in the forum and many disagree with our points, but not many people who do agree with us feel the need to want to take the effort to write in here. That's their loss and if they expect things to change on their own, then they'll never be happy.

Then we talk about kicking people out, I only kick people out who are abusive or attack people at my table. I don't kick people out because of their rating. As much as I rather play equal challengers at what table I'm at, I never kicked out a 1200 who came to my provie table. Do I worry they'll win cos of the deals? Yes but guess I'll hope they won't know what to do with the cards to win or maybe I'll get a fair deal and my skills will win over a weaker player. I agree with many that to kick people off a table because of their rating is rude.

As for the talk about different rooms, I support it. The server can only take in so many people so why not divide rooms by what type of game you wish to play? If you need to talk to your friends who are in another lobby, get a yahoo or MSN account. Having different rooms should be an asset for the site and newbies coming in seeing they have a choice where to play instead of having one lobby that has max 300 people and can't get in because people are angry room is divided. I'm not a computer programmer, but I'd image for SCE to make the rooms fill up to 300 is no easy feat for them. To demand all rooms are once again together might be a near impossiable task for them to correct. Do we want to go back to the days when server crashed for for a short period or we lost our game because the lobby was too full? For those people who want rooms all in one who disagree with my ending the provie system...."If its not broke why change it?".

Anyway that is my 2 cents here. Again great stats on the bell curve abc, however its clear that other posts that have gotten closed have not be resolved yet and being talked about here on a post about data on rating. Unless if there is profanity, or true bashing towards one another, or a programming glitch that was pointed out and corrected why close any posts. Why not just delete or edit the bashing posts? I once was a moderator for a PhPBB forum at another site and I had the ablity to edit or delete posts that lead towards bashing or used profanity. I very rarely used this power to edit/delete anyone's post because I felt it was their right to express their feelings but, I didn't want to see any personal attacks and that was the only time I used the power.

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Post by omni_555 » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:32 pm

Midnightguy wrote:Well I play at Euchre too, I'm sure some of the players who tried out the site here went through this scenario. They got their brand new 1500 0-0 provie rating start rating. Then they face someone who is 1350 and provie with a losing record say 5-10 and they found out other team got J's every deal. They get shutout 11-0 or lost 10-3 <hell even 13-0 im sure they get a loner with 9-0 score if they wanted to add insult to injury to other team already> ....the team who won might as well put on autoplay because no matter what they have an idiot proof win and could beat even the top masters of euchre with those cards. What kinda fun is that? Just HW's usual way of making sure the deals are stacked against the better players.


Midnightguy, you seem to have a pretty good grasp on things. However, I have to ask how either keeping or eliminating a Provie system will in any way affect the effect that "lucky cards" would have on a player's game? Skewed deals happen at ALL levels of play.

My total argument against the provie system isn't because I want high tons of high rated games. What is the point to have tons of high rated names if your not playing them in the first place? Again, I support name limitations and could live with having 5 names max. Five names should be enough for an average family. If everyone had only 5 names, odds are people who are 1800 or 2000 will have a period where their ratings will take a hit and they will come back down to 1600-1700. They will be forced to use those names because they can't just keep recreating another new provie name. I contest this is where our problem lies and if we did away with unlimited names, then you'll see less provie games and more rated games and perhaps see a few higher rated tables because players would be forced to use their high names instead of creating new ones all the time.
I completely agree with you here. Hundreds of nicks does seem to defeat the whole purpose of any sort of rating system. However, if the Provie system is REMOVED, just try to imagine how many ADDITIONAL new nicks would be created when people discover that they no longer have to play through 20 games to "establish" their nick!!!

Like you described, MY nick (the one and only that I have ever used on HW) has varied between 1400 and 1800 over the years. When I am "down", I play harder, working to bring my nick back up to a "respectable" level. When my rating is up, I play a little more cautiously, mainly to better protect my rating, but I still find myself playing in games with players having lower ratings, and losing just a few of these games QUICKLY drops that 1800 rating back down into the 1500's or lower!

I just want a fair game and facing people of equal competition. Coming to either Spades or Euchre then finding mostly the tables all are provies or tables rated 1500 or rated but allows anyone to come doesn't seem to promote the site has skilled players. I know Galt and I talk in the minority here in the forum and many disagree with our points, but not many people who do agree with us feel the need to want to take the effort to write in here. That's their loss and if they expect things to change on their own, then they'll never be happy.
Midnightguy, again I have to ask HOW getting rid of the Provie system will CHANGE this fact??? IMHO, just the OPPOSITE will occur when a whole NEW influx of nicks is created, and 1500-rated games will be even MORE prolific.

Then we talk about kicking people out, I only kick people out who are abusive or attack people at my table. I don't kick people out because of their rating. As much as I rather play equal challengers at what table I'm at, I never kicked out a 1200 who came to my provie table. Do I worry they'll win cos of the deals? Yes but guess I'll hope they won't know what to do with the cards to win or maybe I'll get a fair deal and my skills will win over a weaker player. I agree with many that to kick people off a table because of their rating is rude.
I'm a little confused here... You are talking about ways to get the site set up so that there are fewer lower rated players/games (or more high rated players/games, same difference...) yet you frown on kicking people from a game who have ratings low enough to cause concern... You can't have it both ways. Either you are willing to play in games with low-raters, or you are not. If you ARE willing, then why speak against the provie system?... If you are NOT, then why sit at tables with low rated players?...

As for the talk about different rooms, I support it. The server can only take in so many people so why not divide rooms by what type of game you wish to play? If you need to talk to your friends who are in another lobby, get a yahoo or MSN account. Having different rooms should be an asset for the site and newbies coming in seeing they have a choice where to play instead of having one lobby that has max 300 people and can't get in because people are angry room is divided. I'm not a computer programmer, but I'd image for SCE to make the rooms fill up to 300 is no easy feat for them. To demand all rooms are once again together might be a near impossiable task for them to correct. Do we want to go back to the days when server crashed for for a short period or we lost our game because the lobby was too full? For those people who want rooms all in one who disagree with my ending the provie system...."If its not broke why change it?".
Is not the room limit STILL 300??? And when the room is full, does not the Server display a message to the next player who tries to enter indicating that the room is now full and is not accepting any new players?

Rather than splitting up the rooms based on game type, I agree with the person who suggested lowering the room limits. When a room has 200 players, allow no more to enter. The overflow will then go to the next room. After all, overflow was the ONLY reason that people USED to go to another room, and it STILL is the only reason for many.

As for your quote "If its not broke why change it?" I would like to point out that the rooms were ORIGINALLY designed to be "all-in-one", so I could ask the same question THERE... Or maybe I should ask "If it wasn't broke in the first place, why not change it back?"

Anyway that is my 2 cents here. Again great stats on the bell curve abc, however its clear that other posts that have gotten closed have not be resolved yet and being talked about here on a post about data on rating. Unless if there is profanity, or true bashing towards one another, or a programming glitch that was pointed out and corrected why close any posts. Why not just delete or edit the bashing posts? I once was a moderator for a PhPBB forum at another site and I had the ablity to edit or delete posts that lead towards bashing or used profanity. I very rarely used this power to edit/delete anyone's post because I felt it was their right to express their feelings but, I didn't want to see any personal attacks and that was the only time I used the power.
I agree with your point here, Midnightguy. There have been a number of times that I have been in the act of composing a post for a particular thread, only to discover when I tried to "Submit" it that the thread had been closed in the interim!!! Maybe the Powers That Be have had good reasons for locking these threads, but they weren't obvious to me or to many others...

Taking up the gauntlet from Absolutely's post, if the games on HW were made free and the cards distribution "problem" resolved, you would see an influx of players here that would make the Zone, WorldPlay, PlaySite, MPlayer, YaHoo and others ALL COMBINED look puny! 8)
Playing games should be FUN - seek out your own level! Don't frustrate others unnecessarily. 8)

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Post by Vidurr » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:06 pm

My take is this and I have been stuck on this issue for a long time. It makes zero sense to me to change HW to benefit a small group of players. I think the stats from abc verify this.

To beat a DEAD HORSE....

If you want high rated games and you can't get them on HW; the answer is NOT to do away with the Prov System or as suggested again and again and again.....limit the number of nics, etc, etc, etc...

Abc, Primal, absolutely, hexa, dust.... all hit this point. Why are we changing something that is not broken ? The majority of HW is HAPPY. Why do we continue to suggest changes or take aways to please a select few (2%) ?????

HW OFFERS right now a way for the 2% and all these outside players to come to HW and play their high skilled REGULAR GAMES in a ROOM all by themselves WITH NO Provs, No Chat, No Foom....it's called:

FORM A LEAGUE.

I detest the notions that 80% of the players have to have something taken away in order to appease the 2%.

FORM A LEAGUE.

The LEAGUE affects NOBODY but those who want to join it.

FORM A LEAGUE and leave the 80% alone.

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Absolutely
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Post by Absolutely » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:21 pm

Everybody sing:

Let it be

Let it be

Let it be

Let it be

Speaking words of wisdom

Let it be.

:idea: HW may not be perfect for everybody but it is fine just the way it is. :idea:
:-) YA'LL REALLY CRACK ME UP !!! :-)

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Post by Just_Ice » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:55 am

abcba123 wrote:Actually your very initial premise is incorrect Ice.
How so? Did I not say that "because we want multiple nic names" the system can not place "players?" I said what you said. I know that SCE allows households to buy one copy and lets you make 1,000 nic names if that's what you want. Those facts are not in question.

But, we're talking about "a Provisional system that will place players into their proper skill level" like HW claims of its Provisional system. I merely stated that if you use 2 nic names, or reset the one you have, it can not do that.

Further, you are basing your remarks on how things are done at HW. I am commenting on why HW's Provisional system can not "place players into a skill level" like it claims it does. What HW does is only representative of how things are at HW. Not all web sites do things the same way. Yes, a true Provisional system to place players is probably not wanted or needed at HW.

HW's Provisional system "works" because people do not use it to "place themselves in a skill range" as a Provisional system should. That's all I said. I did not say HW's provisional system does not work for HW. Because of what the players at HW use it for, it works fine and is liked by most. But, it would never work to place *players* into a skill rating level.

It can't.

I still say the growth was going to force a room change eventually anyway, so it's a pointless discussion.

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Post by abcba123 » Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:38 am

Just Ice
I am commenting on why HW's Provisional system can not "place players into a skill level" like it claims it does. What HW does is only representative of how things are at HW. Not all web sites do things the same way. Yes, a true Provisional system to place players is probably not wanted or needed at HW.

HW's Provisional system "works" because people do not use it to "place themselves in a skill range" as a Provisional system should. That's all I said. I did not say HW's provisional system does not work for HW. Because of what the players at HW use it for, it works fine and is liked by most. But, it would never work to place *players* into a skill rating level.

It can't.
It can and it does.

And it is needed.

Several posts have explained the need.

I understand that for SOME (2%); the prov system may not be what they want.

But it seems that the majority of HW and even HW itself believes the system works and has advantages the way it is currently set up.

No change is necessary.
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Post by Cadienne » Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:21 am

:roll:
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Absolutely
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Post by Absolutely » Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:45 am

Absolutely wrote:Everybody sing:

Let it be

Let it be

Let it be

Let it be

Speaking words of wisdom

Let it be.

:idea: HW may not be perfect for everybody but it is fine just the way it is. :idea:
And when the broken hearted people
Living in the world agree,
There will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be parted there is
Still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be. Yeah
There will be an answer, let it be.
:-) YA'LL REALLY CRACK ME UP !!! :-)

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