What makes a player good?

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Dead Presidents
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What makes a player good?

Post by Dead Presidents » Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:15 am

The rating system hardwood has is used so you can have an idea of how good or bad someone is in the game of spades...If you managed to get 1300 then you must be a bad player right? If you managed to reach 2000 then you must be good right? They say rating isnt everything...rating doesnt tell how good a player is...isnt it funny thing its always the average player that says that tho?...Anyways rating DOES tell how good a player is...win/loss ratio is not relevant in today's hardwood...people show up with these 90-27 nics...100-15 nics...outstanding ratios...but rating not even 1900...cause they face what we call "scrubs"...My Objected in this post is to convince you that rating DOES matter in telling how good a player is.

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Post by B O W » Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:09 pm

Hmmm......I agree and disagree.......I have played with several high 1800 low 1900 players and must say, their game sucked. I am not the best and probably never will be, but I often wonder how people accomplish to have a high rating but they play like scrubbs.....yet I played with 1400 palyers and their game was equal to a high 1800 player.......one can only assume that a 1800 / 1900 player is as good as the rating.

Ok Ok....Im one of the average player who always needs a P who can carry my sorry but thru the game :?
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Post by Galt » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:19 pm

Assuming no manipulation has taken place, and a reasonable number of games has been played, an N rated player will generally have a playing ability somewhere around that N level, unless that player is still working his way up in rating at a fairly steady rate (i.e., his true rating may be higher than N).

What really makes a good player, however, is a combination of the ability to adapt to different pards with different playing styles, a never-ending desire to learn, the understanding that the game is just a game - and the civil treatment of pards and opps that goes with that, and the willingness to do what he or she can to give something back to the game.

Edit... I should have included this. The biggest variation in rating level and ability, at a site like HW, will likely result from eaarning a rating from primarily one or more variants of the game, and then attempting to translate that rating to a different variant while possibly having little or no experience/ability at that variant.

Be advised that the following post was made prior to this edit, and thanks.
Last edited by Galt on Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dead Presidents
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Post by Dead Presidents » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:46 pm

I totally agree Galt. Smart man.

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Post by omni_555 » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:56 am

Good points galt. For one, I know that if I were to play cut Spades or partners Hearts, anyone at the table with me would wonder if it were really a person playing my cards or if I had just put the game on Autoplay!!! Partnership Spades and single Hearts I can do passably at.

Also, the point about what partner a player has affecting his play is also a very valid one. There are some "good" players out there with whom I have partnered in the past. With some of them, we NEVER come close to winning a game! On the other hand, there are some players who no one else will partner because they play so badly, but when we partner together we are unbeatable!!!

Bottom line, as galt said, given that no cheating or manipulation has taken place and that a reasonable number of games have been played, a player's rating will generally give a decent idea of his playing ability. 8)
Playing games should be FUN - seek out your own level! Don't frustrate others unnecessarily. 8)

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Post by abcba123 » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:12 am

I think the reality of spades on HW is that players enjoy playing a variety of different game variations. And they may actually be good at all of them.

As much as some may detest the Top25; it does give us a brief glimpse of a players ranking and what they are playing. I've looked at the HW Top 25 list many times and regularly it is filled with players with records such as:

1st: 25
2nd: 14
3rd: 5
4th: 0
Team 1st: 33
Team 2nd: 6

1st: 31
2nd: 21
3rd: 28
4th: 1
Team 1st: 336
Team 2nd: 227

1st: 393
2nd: 290
3rd: 254
4th: 33
Team 1st: 105
Team 2nd: 59

1st: 223
2nd: 215
3rd: 145
4th: 2
Team 1st: 82
Team 2nd: 49

They are successful at individual and partner games.

Yes, there are examples of players with:

1st: 58
2nd: 43
3rd: 29
4th: 0
Team 1st: 0
Team 2nd: 0

But many times, those players also have partner nics with an equally good winning percentage and ranking.

It is common on HW to find players who play a variety of games and are equally good at all of them.
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Post by Galt » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:51 am

That is very true.
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Post by B O W » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:47 pm

I like those replies and it really gives me somewhat an understanding on how to judge a rating......I am not the best player and I dont always play with the same people. I play lots of lobby because I do like the fact that it is a challenge to partner people you never played with. I dont cheat, never have and never will, but I do love to learn and to understand the game better.
And I do understand that a player who has not only a high rating but also has a good winning record in both--cut and partner games--is a good player......yet there a few who do play both but in partnergames play 98% only with regular P's and stay away from lotbby lotto.
So, what about the ones with a high rating but a 55-45% or 60-40% win/los record?
I know I am not the best, my records runn about 80-20 win/los..with lots of lobby lotto...and my cut ummm...well, i just started playing cut a few months ago and make like a 10-3-2 record....(still learning the cut game) .......I am always willing to learn , thats why i am reading replies like the ones from u guys.
And if any1 of u guys ever want a good student, let me know, because I really want to improve and understand the game even better........I dont feel bad about positive critic and never get mad at some1 who takes the time to teach me something new.

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Post by Dust In The Wind » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:18 pm

I love playing all the games and the variations in each of them, some I am better in than others but with enough practice I will be good in those too. The main reason I like to play the variations is "Who wants HAMBURGER every night?" one reason I hate sitcoms I guess, may be good for the first few shows but after that same ole same ole.

My two favorite games are cut-throat and pards and both are very different in both bid and play. But if you have a good base knowledge of the game you can learn to do well in any of the variations.

I do believe that both winning percentage and rating play a part in determining a players ability, sometimes one does not reflect on the other and there can many reasons for that which I think most of you know and have said here. I also have some old nics that started out under the "old rating system" and when you look at the winning percentage you may wonder why the rating isn't much higher.

One of the biggest factors in ratings is with whom you play, if your here just to have fun and play then more than likely if you are a very good player your ratings will relfect lower than your ability due to the fact you came to play not to wait for a competitive game with only the ones within your ratings. Those that spend the extra time waiting on the players that are in their playing ability are more than likely to remain there or continue to go up the ladder.

JUST DUST

PS - I play both, serious nics for serious games and nics to just have fun, the fun ones get to play more often and usually enjoy the game more.
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Post by Dead Presidents » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:57 am

i c
Spades is a beautiful thing.

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"The Complete Player"

Post by Joe Andrews » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:21 am

There are many aspects of the game of Spades which factor into the overall ability of a player. And then there are the intangibles.

In order to become an accomplished Spades player, you must have a good memory, outstanding counting techniques, the skill to "read" a position, and the killer instinct to pounce on any opponent's error. And then there is "card sense", which is best explained by the great Bridge player, Barry Crane.

"Card sense is the ability to feel where the cards are; the ability to do the right thing at the wrong time, or really to do the wrong thing at the right time. That instinct is card sense.â€

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Post by abcba123 » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:02 am

Stumbled upon this FUN example:

You are a competitive player. Tired of getting random lobby lotto who can't play. You want someone who understands bid and card signals: covering nils, the Big 5, finesse, 2nd player low, 3rd player high, -1 bids, etc... heck maybe even someone who has read a book or two on spades or at least reads a spades forum every now and then.

You stumble into HW lobby looking for a game.

You decide to check out a few profiles before just randomly sitting down to a table looking for a partner or even an opponent.

You come across this profile:

1st: 0
2nd: 0
3rd: 0
4th: 0
Team 1st: 50
Team 2nd: 30

Rating 1599

Account created January, 2006

Your mind quickly races through a score of questions and assumptions:

Medicore player ? Decent win % (60%) but far from the best I have ever seen. No where close to 80% wins. They must pick on provies and rookies given the rating is poor ? They must not play any competition given the 50 wins and low rating ? Probably just another average HW player ? Thank goodness their rank was not tainted with "cut" games. But they played only 80 games in the entire year the account was created ? Obviously not a competitive skilled player ?

What do you think ? Worthy opponent ? Would you partner them ? Would you risk your 2000 rated nic playing with or against ? Would you risk a 1700 rank ? Maybe switch nics and get something lower ?

Hmmmmm......wait...

I think I recognize the username........

UserName: TrashCanCharlie

Could this be aka Jay Tomlinson ?

Geeez, doesn't ranking and win % mean anything ?

LOL

My guess after reading Tomlinson's posts and his forum is that Joe is right and Tomlinson is an excellent player.

Sometimes people get too caught up in rankings and win %.

It's a tool and not always a very good one.

Nothing is better than actually knowing your partner or opponent.

Ut oh.... I wonder if TrashCanCharlie and Jay are one in the same ?

Hmmm... Maybe I should ask before partnering them ?
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Post by Dead Presidents » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:09 am

i see what ur saying...good point. Whos Tomlinson?
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Jay Tomlinson

Post by Joe Andrews » Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:03 pm

FYI, Jay Tomlinson a/k/a "Trash Can Charlie" is a Bridge Life Master, Forum moderator, and Spades expert. I have had the opporunity to frequently chat with Jay during the past few years, and I have also watched him play Spades on - line, and in person. He and his brother Gary, participated in the Grand Prix World Series of Spades (Oct. '06 / St. Louis), and were the top qualifying Team with a W/L record of 7 - 1, against a strong field. They lost in the second Round of the Playoffs, with incredibly bad cards. ('Dat ole Debbil, Luck - LOL)! Jay is the finest Spades player I have ever seen. (No disrespect intended to the other great players).

He brings to the table years of experience and a knowledge of Bridge technique and strategy. Still, without a good partner, Jay would be at a disadvantage if he played with a stranger against two seasoned opponents who partnered regularly. (Another frequently discussed topic)! If you ever have the chance to partner Jay, go for it. You will learn a lot.

Who knows, there may be some gifted players out there who are "cutting their teeth" in HW, and ready to take a shot at the next GP World Series Tournament!

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Post by Galt » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:02 pm

Today I listened to Joe's interview of Jay on the GP Radio website, and really enjoyed it.

I particularly liked the story about the guy smacking his wife at the Bridge table.

The whole laid-back southern gentleman thing did take me a little by surprise... lol.

I highly recommend going there and listening. It is the 2nd half of the St Louis Part 2 program.
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