Serial offenders

User avatar
Sailing_Away
Guide
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:44 am
Location: Perth, ON

Re: Serial offenders

Post by Sailing_Away » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:54 pm

Guess the bottom line is:

-kroebi, you got it. The guides cannot fight the cheaters. They can help and some even have gone out on a limb to help. It's SCE admin's own will to do something about it that stands between where we are and doing something about the most blatant cheaters and implementing processes to detect and punish cheating in general. Several suggestions were made in IdeaScale that could be implemented towards this end, but don't look for the guides to be able to do anything magical to stop it.

-kroebi, you also go it when it comes to what the guides are for, which is to enforce the rules that they do have the power to enforce which includes silencing players who are violating rules such as complaining about other players in the lobby, accusations of cheating, etc. Not that you would ever cheat, but if a player you played against started whining in the lobby about you cheating, you'd want the guide to silence them.

-Dust, we all get that your hands are tied as I stated above, and you can only do so much about this problem. I think your response pretty well backs that claim up, and it isn't an indictment on you and other guides.... you all do the best you can with what you have at your disposal and often are not thanked for it, so I will... thank you for all you do keeping the peace as best you can!

-Everyone - all you can really do instead of complain to guides and in the lobby and on this message board is GO TO IDEASCALE and vote for cheating-busting enhancements and enter new ones if you have an idea that has not been submitted.

and finally...

-Everyone - if this site is worse than others for allowing unfettered cheating by the same few over and over again, find a family friendly site hosting your favourite games and play there and see if the problem is any better than here. Anything they do well there can be offered as a suggestion on IdeaScale for this site, or you can happily play elsewhere, or if you find no site manages this well, then just accept it will happen and continue to do your best to avoid and ignore the social misfits.
-Brian

"Come Sail Away with me...."

Old Mama1999
Noob
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:45 am

Re: Serial offenders

Post by Old Mama1999 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:55 pm

Hi all

Sorry to jump in here. My kids (13 and 15) were playing here and one day the younger one came up screaming. He had several games lost as a low rater against high rated player as all of a sudden a player came into that game and informed the other player that it is cheating game. He called me and was screaming (kids don't want to lose as we all know) and was hardly to calm. When I heard that I logged in as cheesdriller_CH and was asking some questions like is that true that cheaters are here and so on. I got twice silenced for these questions for a total of 2 hours by the guide mentioned before. I got no answers on my questions so I asked my son who did tell you that they cheat and he said Choco late. So I talked to her in private for over an hour and she explained me how the cheating works and she is fighting these cheaters since month. The consequence for me as a caring mother was my kids are no longer allowed to play at SCE. We found another game site and I watch them closely. Choco late confirmed that she will continue to fight even she gets silenced and/or banned. I'm still in contact with her and she also gave me the ok to mention her nic name here.
I'm not entitled to make suggestions because I'm not frequent online and my kids are not allowed to play here anymore but the idea from Sailing_Away to incorporate some cheating alerts in the program would be a good way to go. For my kids that's too late.

Thank you for your patience and good bye.

User avatar
U.S. Marshall
Active Poster
Posts: 428
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:18 am
Location: Kansas/ where Sheep are vermin

Re: Serial offenders

Post by U.S. Marshall » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:53 pm

well it would be a whole lot easier if admin would just watch some of the reported games for gods sake. When Players are playing singles and a player will feed the lowest player the Jack and snatch the queen so The lowest player doesn't get her it doesn't take rocket scientists to figure out that there is a rat in the house. I have said it several times before also, sure there are people reporting people as cheats for no other reason than they lost I understand that, but when the same few accounts get mountains of reports about cheating it should mean something to somebody in Admin.
Image
Image

User avatar
Dust In The Wind
Guide
Posts: 5336
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:29 pm
Location: North Ga Mts

Re: Serial offenders

Post by Dust In The Wind » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:51 pm

It is a fact that Jonas's said that they and not the guides will handle cheaters and that is the way I will do as instructed by Jonas not anyone else. Yes you may see how a player is cheating but is it an absolute that that is the case from the play or because you know the player? If you just take the evidence as presented can you without any doubt determine they are cheating? Saying that someone is cheating and proving it is 2 different items. Good luck.

JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

User avatar
U.S. Marshall
Active Poster
Posts: 428
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:18 am
Location: Kansas/ where Sheep are vermin

Re: Serial offenders

Post by U.S. Marshall » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:30 am

Dust cannot replay games only the person that was in the game may replay them or admin may replay them. I do wish you would apologise to sandbar for accusing her of deleted posts and cheat reports because she cannot do that.
Image
Image

User avatar
Sailing_Away
Guide
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:44 am
Location: Perth, ON

Re: Serial offenders

Post by Sailing_Away » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:09 am

Unless you are a version 2 player, in which case there is no "replay game" feature available for either players or admin to use. That's all a ruse anyway because the game log is just a text file that can easily be changed in notepad so no matter what we do, we're screwed.

There's the last ditch thing called filing a game report which you can do from within the game. I don't know what that does exactly.... maybe it sends a true copy of the game log to admin that cannot be altered which they MAYBE can go through (except as I've been told, if you're a version 2 player, they cannot do that either except to open the text file and try to make sense of it). Also, some people abuse the report game feature (like BB BB does by reporting EVERY game she plays) so who knows if they even have time to go through all the reported games.

SCE admins.... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE implement something that will help us permanently deal with this problem. We have no power here but to walk away (and guides are just as powerless to fight against cheating as has previously been discussed).
-Brian

"Come Sail Away with me...."

User avatar
Dust In The Wind
Guide
Posts: 5336
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:29 pm
Location: North Ga Mts

Re: Serial offenders

Post by Dust In The Wind » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:29 am

What filing a report from the game itself does is send along with the report a game ID that can then be ID'ed on the server (as it was at one time anyways). It provides a link to the proper game.

I cannot view games that you send me. I also am not the one that can determine if a cheat is involved, I am not authorized to do so.

Copy and paste of chat can be altered whether you altered it or not, no way to prove it hasn't been altered and therefore inadmisable as evidence.

Why I say you have to have proof beyond a doubt is that players play can have many reasons behind it and just giving the JoD to someone that you think shouldn't have gotten it is not proof of cheating IE: I have dropped JoD hoping that highman would get it so I had more time to be in a winning spot and was the best opportunity to get it to them and was going to lose it anyways with no chance. and it failed...

Lastly from Jonas's point of view, he has to be absolutly sure that he is punishing someone absolutly beyond a doubt guilty. I would not want to make a mistake based on evidenced that could be tampered with or misconstrued as fact. I have also seen many games the accussed have played that was on the up and up.

JUST DUST

PS - For the record I was taught that cheaters never win, they just fool themselves... I don't play them and if others do it is their business... live and learn... You couldn't pay me to cheat or be unfair to others but I do believe in following the laws and rules set forth whereever I am and know they change dependent upon that location...
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

User avatar
U.S. Marshall
Active Poster
Posts: 428
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:18 am
Location: Kansas/ where Sheep are vermin

Re: Serial offenders

Post by U.S. Marshall » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:35 am

It is strange that the other games do not have this never ending discussion about cheating so I would say it is a hearts issue. Dust when Players play repeatably with the same nics and those nics blatantly help that nic win game after game it is proof beyond a doubt to me. Sure we know we play a honest game but allowing these cheats to dominate the leaderboard so that we can never have a chance to be the leader sure takes the competition out of playing for high spot, Not to mention that they make new nics all the time just to join my games to intentionally make me lose ( Oh Yea thats fun )
Last edited by U.S. Marshall on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Image

User avatar
Sailing_Away
Guide
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:44 am
Location: Perth, ON

Re: Serial offenders

Post by Sailing_Away » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:40 pm

From my perspective - I could care less about the leaderboard. I play way too many tourney games and best I can hope for is a rating in the 1400s as a result.

The issue for me isn't the chance for a shot at the top of the leaderboard but the way such behaviour is noticed by paying customers who may just quietly leave the site without informing anyone of their decision and why.

Seems to me that enough solid evidence has been provided to Jonas that it should be "beyond a shadow of a doubt" for these certain accounts that they are cheating, but there are other options if this is a move he won't consider for fear of punishing an innocent player.

I have suggested before on here and in IdeaScale that there are ways to completely foil the cheaters at their own game that do not involve banning people. Just implement for everyone the restriction you have for version 2 players that you cannot play a rated game with 2 computers at the same table (based on IP address). While that keeps me from playing rated games with my wife, we manage ok.... we just play social games. Cheaters go for the ratings and leaderboard so just make version 1 players abide by this same rule version 2 players are required to and you'll have done a lot to solve this problem for good.

What's wrong with that, Dust?
-Brian

"Come Sail Away with me...."

User avatar
Dust In The Wind
Guide
Posts: 5336
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:29 pm
Location: North Ga Mts

Re: Serial offenders

Post by Dust In The Wind » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:01 pm

So where do you go from here......

-- proof is needed - find REAL proof - not texts that can be modified - time/date/game/briefly explain content (remember SCE is PT or make it your time zone IE:EST so they have a point of reference) ID of coversations that can be accessed on the server to back the proof
-- if the leader board is the key issue then address that
-- if banning a player(s) is the key issue that is up the SCE
-- if an approved method of warning players of players that have in the past cheated (you cannot prove intent on the next game) that again would be something SCE would have to approve
-- Maybe a different approach towards Jonas may give some enlightenment on the subject find some solutions that may work

Things that do not work...

-- Breaking the rules to announce players in the lobby that someone will cheat (cannot prove that until the deed is done)
-- Going into the accused players room calling them names and annoucing that they cheat before the fact of that game (see above)
-- Going after the guides that have no say in the matter and become the issue rather than the solution to the issue you are trying to resolve


JUST DUST

PS - all the game text (*.txt) posted cannot be used as proof, it doesn't matter if I believe you or not, it cannot be used as proof because it can be tampered with and I intern can tamper with it or the next person and so on. Jonas is in the same boat (well he may have a bigger boat) but if you can point to "here it is on your server"... now he can access things as they are written and presented... that is what can win your case...

PS - Ogre takes his lawyer cap off and takes a break...
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

User avatar
Sailing_Away
Guide
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:44 am
Location: Perth, ON

Re: Serial offenders

Post by Sailing_Away » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:38 pm

Ok, so why not address my simple suggestion of making version 1 clients be prohibited from playing rated games with players from the same IP address like version 2 players are forced to do?

Such a simple solution that doesn't make Jonas or anyone else sit in judgement of anyone! All this hand-wringing over whether people can cheat about reporting cheaters would be gone as would be never-ending discussions about cheaters on here.

Maybe we could get back to talking about the games we're here to play in the first place, then.

Yes, version 1 players will whine about this, but it's a small price to pay to put this issue to bed.
-Brian

"Come Sail Away with me...."

User avatar
Dust In The Wind
Guide
Posts: 5336
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:29 pm
Location: North Ga Mts

Re: Serial offenders

Post by Dust In The Wind » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:14 pm

Again I am not the one you have to convince... I would not judge the above games... it is not a question if you would change it... all I have tried to do here is point you in a direction that you may have better results... key word may...

JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

User avatar
Sailing_Away
Guide
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:44 am
Location: Perth, ON

Re: Serial offenders

Post by Sailing_Away » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:09 pm

Ok I give up. I avoid smoots anyway.
-Brian

"Come Sail Away with me...."

Old Mama1999
Noob
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:45 am

Re: Serial offenders

Post by Old Mama1999 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:24 am

Hi all
I posted what happened to my son three days ago and I followed this thread since then. I didn’t expect that the problem to be solved within these 3 days but I expected a word from CEO or the owner of that company SCE. A word like:

“Sorry Old Mama we are deeply affected that your son had such a bad experience at our site and we deeply regret it. We will do everything that such case will not happen again.”
or
“Sorry Old Mama we will refund the cost of the game after such a bad experience your son had.”

Calm and composed I described what happened. I didn't offend anybody. Now I lost my patience because what do I see? Instead of an apology I see this clown guide Dust In The Wind who silenced me two hours for some questions I had asking for some proof. There are players who report these cheaters since month and that clown guide want some proof. kroebi gave him some proof and now he pulls his tail, claiming he is not in charge of that. What da childish clown.

After all this I am convinced that my decision was right to block the account for my kids.

User avatar
Sailing_Away
Guide
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:44 am
Location: Perth, ON

Re: Serial offenders

Post by Sailing_Away » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:14 am

I can understand your frustration, Old Mama1999, as many of us are frustrated. Dust's problem is he, like all guides, are powerless to really do anything about the cheating problem, but they are empowered to ensure the lobby chat isn't an extension of what's posted here. Hence, you were punished while the cheaters aren't.

The other problem is that Dust kinda posted on behalf of SCE admins like Jonas when he says they need proof, but it's not up to him. Since he stuck his neck out for Jonas, he's getting the brunt of the frustration aimed at him, which isn't really fair but it's understandable how this happened that way.

Where I do fault Dust is that he won't express an opinion on the suggestions I made concerning ideas that would stop the big cheaters who use 2 computers to play the same rated table in order to boost ratings (I think we all agree this is how they do it). If SCE just stops them from doing that like they've done with version 2 players, this problem diminishes greatly without anyone needing to prove anything and without SCE having to decide if someone really is cheating or if there is any doubt of this. it takes the heat off Jonas and company, solves a big problem, and we can just go on to playing the games we come here to play. I don't understand why Dust completely ignored the suggestion. I know he's not the one who decides what enhancements are made but he could at least offer his opinion on the topic instead of berating those of us who find the acceptance of cheating by SCE despicable. I think guides can influence the priority placed on accepting and making enhancements based on their experiences as guides (e.g., this would really help us maintain order, that one won't, etc).

I expect guides to want to make this site enjoyable by people who just come here to play - not to antagonize us if we don't like the environment we have to play in.
-Brian

"Come Sail Away with me...."

Post Reply