Server Rules Silvercreek

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Dust In The Wind
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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by Dust In The Wind » Sun May 12, 2013 7:16 am

Choco, making new player names in the forum to keep trying to push your point will not work.
You harassing players in the lobby also will not work, please read the rules and stop making false
statements in here as you do. Saying that 3 others guides are taking a stance as you claim is again
a false statement and we all enforce the rules the same. I expect this to be deleted as all your other
posts on this subject where you take it one step too far. You are not hurting me by making statements
like you are but hurting yourself because I am not the only one that knows your game. I really do not care
how many different names you make to try to insult me in the forum or in the lobby and will do as I always
have and follow the instructions given by the owner of the site not you....

JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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U.S. Marshall
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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by U.S. Marshall » Sun May 12, 2013 10:49 am

Yes this post will be deleted I wish choco would post without accusing guides of cheating and using names, Just for the record tho there has been a preponderance of evidence presented that has went completely ignored. 2nd Choco/European Marshall's statement that some guides do intervene in the offenders games by either abandoning the game or kicking 1 or both of the offenders out is not false as I have witnessed it many times myself. 3rd. Our hands have been completely tied as if we even try to watch a game they immediately start voting to kick out any watchers even if not a word is said, not that any of the thousands of reports have done any good anyway.
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Old Mama1999
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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by Old Mama1999 » Mon May 13, 2013 12:07 am

Yes I hope this post gets deleted. Attacking valuable guides is a no go even my son got hit by unfair gamers.

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sandbar
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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by sandbar » Mon May 13, 2013 12:48 am

All of us guides work together following the rules set down by Jonas, sometimes we are able to check on a game where accusations of cheating are flying around.

If there is blatant cheating, we handle it the best we can, not all games are abandoned, nor are the players booted unless necessary.

We personally (guides) cannot do anything about the cheating we can only ask you to send a report in, as we have sent many reports in over time also.
Bringing the argument into the lobby is not going to better your cause, it will only end in disrupting the lobby, and you ending up silenced.

And please, don't forget the guides have different time zones, therefore see different players at different times, we try and share the information on players where we can.
Attacking a guide personally is not cool, we are all volunteers and try our best to help the players as much as we can.
So how about quit knocking the guides, ignore the ones you are accusing of cheating, and don't join their games.
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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by U.S. Marshall » Mon May 13, 2013 4:42 am

Your last comment sandy does no good when they make new nics and join our games and love to let us know that we have been had after a few of their stupendous throw the jack out and their other nic always has the high diamond or snag the queen and then play more spades, and they can make unlimited nics.
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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by Sailing_Away » Mon May 13, 2013 6:32 am

I've made a few suggestions that can put the cheater out of business if the developers would just implement them. The biggest and easiest one is to implement for version 1 the requirement that 2 players from the same IP cannot play a rated game together. They cheat to boost their own ratings, and they use 2 computers side-by-side to occupy 2 seats at a table: one throws the game to the other.

With me on version 2 and my wife on version 1, I cannot play a rated game with her (no matter who sits first), but using v1 clients we can play rated games together. This is clearly a server-side validation and could be enforced for all players. if this is done, it would end the means by which these cheaters operate.

Why is SCE hesitant to just do this and end this crazy debate that has guides and players so up in arms and at each other's throats?
-Brian

"Come Sail Away with me...."

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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by Old Mama1999 » Mon May 13, 2013 7:16 am

With two different internet providers or using HIDE.IO VPN your attempt is not working Sailing_Away. But the easiest way would ban them. They are well known as you can watch the lobby screaming when they just join not even set a game. After a few hands in a game the two other player in their game crying for help in lobby. And as Sandbar and U.S. Marshall stated the majority of guides help.
But...they don't get banned. God knows why.

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Dust In The Wind
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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by Dust In The Wind » Mon May 13, 2013 1:18 pm

Yes you are right they can hide their IP address or link it on different routes, not all ISP's use a single firewall IP either for all PC's behind the wall. Onl way to link players is by account ID which is maintained by SCE staff ONLY. You also cannot determine same account or IP by using a ping to track time since even 2 PC's from the same house can show (and usually do) a different response time. Traceroute will only go so far and you would need info you can't get from the game.

Mama niether Sandbar or US said anything as you stated about guides...

One possible solution is if you put a player on ignore or dislike it effects all nics associated with that account they would not be able to join any of your games no matter what nic they used or made... yes this can have side effects but if it could be done it may resolve most of the issue... that way you as a player can prevent or avoid any game that the "accused" are associated with. They could also do the same to you and so on.

JUST DUST

PS - I firmly believe cheaters never really win and do not let it bother me since I have never been
able to turn in rating points for anything other than the new boat....
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by Sailing_Away » Mon May 13, 2013 1:27 pm

I never said anything about guides and don't appreciate it being inferred that I did. This is how these message board discussions end up getting people angry with one another. We don't need this crap.

And I solve my own personal issue with the cheating by sticking primarily in the Tournament of Players and leaving Smoots to the SCE-tolerated scumbags.
-Brian

"Come Sail Away with me...."

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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by jondalar » Tue May 14, 2013 10:43 pm

The subject of cheating is such a volatile issue that, sadly, will more than likely never be resolved. The controversy, as I see it from a management perspective, is not in the act, rather, it is in the accusation.

In this environment, the act of cheating can undoubtedly be accomplished in many forms ranging from playing with multiple computers to simply two or more individuals talking on a phone or chatting via various IMs. The problem, however, is that we as players can only speculate this is happening. From the limited information we have, we will never be able to prove such an act. Since we can never prove the act, what’s left, then, is the accusation and here is where I have issue with this subject.

I believe in everyone’s life, there is something that each person is phenomenally good at doing. I have been blessed with two such things: table foosball and Hearts. Foosball aside, I have an innate ability to count cards. Sure, I have a degree in Math with might have something to do with this skill, but I think my technique is ingenious and centers around the number 7 of each suit (no, I won’t elaborate :-p). Of course, this is not 100% foolproof, but I like my odds very much. The problem with this ability is that because at any given time during a game, if the conditions are perfect (quiet, game moving along at a solid pace, fully concentrated), I know every single card for that hand that has been played and those that remain to be played. Because of my win record, on a daily basis, I get called a cheater a minimum of three times.

I started out playing Hearts in a singles (shoot) environment, and have all-single-game-nicks that range all the way up to 1800+. Then a couple of years ago I fell in love with partnership hearts and have, I believe, the best partner in the business. Because of our combined abilities with regard to the game of Hearts, we are constantly being called cheaters. In the beginning, I would laugh it off, but lately, the daily accusations have been hurtful, despicable, and downright rude. I can tell you with a clear conscience that my partner and I have never once EVER cheated at this sacred game. Yet every day, someone is calling me a cheater…and not just in the game, but also in the lobby…and then repeatedly.

Certainly, I am not alone. I know most of the good players here, like Bryan, Vesna, Ro, Dee, Drew, MXMom, etc., have also been called a cheat but I believe this is what Jonas struggles with. Not the act of cheating, because this can never be proven, but the accusation of cheating. Unfortunately, most players here simply cannot recognize skillful game-play, and to them, it has the appearance of cheating. So the first words out of their mouths is, of course, CHEATER! Most of these players will then stall the game, leave the game, or show their dissent by announcing to the entire world (lobby) that they’re playing with cheaters. I firmly believe, at this point, the guides should take immediate action, assess the situation, make a judgment call, and deal with the accusation. Either manually abandon a game (after an educated determination), kick the one shouting the accusation, or outright silence that individual. Enough is enough! The accusations really have to stop.

Conversely, let’s face it, there probably are people here that are going to cheat at this game no matter what. Most of us have our suspicions, so since we know who they are, just avoid them. Nine times out of ten these types of players can only prosper in no-shoot games anyway, so just avoid playing no-shoot games. No-shoot isn’t even real hearts (har har…kidding). I believe the accusations with regard to these people need to stop, as well. If you suspect the player of cheating or collusion, call a guide into the game room and let him/her assess the situation. If there is doubt or the accused players have history in this area, the guide should simply abandon the game. In the absence of a guide, really, all you can do is play out the game, file a report, and don’t play with that person anymore.

Like I said in the beginning, this subject is such a volatile and controversial issue. People have been voicing their dissent of this subject in these forums for years and I believe the reason Jonas struggles to do anything to accused players is that the accusation in 99% of the situations simply cannot be substantiated. In the cases where it can be substantiated, then, of course, remove the accounts of the offenders. With regard to the unsubstantiated accusations and the individuals that tell the lobby to don’t play this game number or that game number because there are cheaters in those games, then that player needs to be silenced and appropriate action taken by management.

Most of us come here for the love of the game and the camaraderie. Accusations will destroy that!

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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed May 15, 2013 2:46 pm

Here here, very well written and have also been on that list of being called a cheater and have never cheated at anything ever...

JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by U.S. Marshall » Wed May 15, 2013 4:38 pm

Rod I have seen you & Ves be the most vocal of anybody in going after the ones you know this entire debate is about.

Maybe its just the image of the person I use in my avatar,but I grew up watching Marshal Dillon on Gunsmoke and it god forbid had guns in it but It taught a right from wrong lesson, and I don't see the difference here and I say its really simple to see the blatant cheating if the games would just be watched. If its not then maybe somebody that knows how to play hearts should be reviewing the games.
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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by jondalar » Fri May 17, 2013 12:16 am

Bryan, I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but apparently you didn’t read my entire post. Very CLEARLY, I stated that we know who these people are. And yes, I have been very vocal about who this entire debate is about; however, one of the points I was making was regarding Jonas' struggle to do something about the people we say are cheating. So, when the site owner plainly states (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17861) he WILL NOT address this issue unless one of these geniuses decides to tell Support verbally they are cheating then your comment about getting somebody that knows how to play hearts reviewing the games is moot. We can review and assess game-logs all day long but the bottom line is NOTHING WILL HAPPEN.

So, now that we know Silver Creek’s management team has decided to not get involved with the actual act of cheating unless someone verbalizes their transgression, they have decided to rewrite their Rules of Conduct to make the public accusation of cheating an offense subject to disciplinary action. Reference Silver Creek’s site rules regarding rules of conduct. Rule 15 states:

You will not announce quitters/cheaters or make any other derogatory player comments In The Lobby:

If you feel someone is cheating, has quit, or has done something inappropriate do not announce your opinion in the lobby or game room. Instead please use the in-game report system, and if you choose make a note not to play with the individual in the future. You may also ask a Game Guide for assistance when available.

The gist of my previous post is to now get site leadership to adhere to the site rules and start meting out the warnings/silences for the offenders that like to verbalize who they think is cheating. Listen, more than once I have read in the lobby my own game number as being a game for other players not to join because I was a cheater. This is very disheartening to see day after day, lobby post after lobby post with nothing being said or done. Some folks have come to my aid and stated there was no cheating going on, but still, it’s relentless and demoralizing, especially when it’s allowed to go on and on. Now that Rule 15 is in place, it needs to be defended by the guides vigorously!

Trust me here, if the guides are going to start enforcing Rule 15, I see warnings and silences in my own future regarding the ones to which this whole debate is about because my CDO (that’s OCD, but in the proper order) just will not allow me to keep my mouth shut. I must admit, though, I have been getting better at trying to keep my mouth shut, not much better, but I see progress.

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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by U.S. Marshall » Fri May 17, 2013 6:55 am

If you would not feel the need to write the Gettysburg Address in your posts I might read them more thoughly rather than just skim over them.
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Re: Server Rules Silvercreek

Post by Sailing_Away » Fri May 17, 2013 8:30 am

Jondalar, the people who accuse you of cheating are probably cheating themselves, and since you beat them you must just be better at cheating than they are in their minds.

I get what you're saying about SCE policy. I wish Jonas would have come right out and said that's their policy because while what you said sounds logical as an explanation for their inaction, it's still speculation. I could speculate that Jonas is the one who plays as DAVID and hence why he won't punish himself (I don't personally think this is true but I wanted to make a point about the silence from SCE management).

It's sad though that people are accusing skilled players who know how to mentally count cards of cheating. Your skill must appear like black magic to them. Good thing this isn't 1692 in Salem, Mass!

Unless you play with the same opponent (not partner) all the time and that opponent makes illogical plays that always throw the game in your favour, I think we're talking about different things on this message board. I assume your games show no such act, while such things are always the case with the known and documented cheaters, and hence, it should be possible to do something about them without punishing those who are just skilled players with high rankings.

Enforcing the server rule on announcing cheaters and doing so consistently though is important. I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't being talked about on the guides' forum and that we'll see it come to pass. I'm dissatisfied with SCE inaction on known cheaters as are quite a few others and this comes out in the lobby, but you're right that it can't continue and become a hostile environment for skilled, honest players.
-Brian

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