Pass n Pull issue

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Jonas
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Pass n Pull issue

Post by Jonas » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:18 pm

There certainly seems to be a lot of bickering about players using a Pass and Pull tactic.

The reality is this is a perfectly valid play and NOT a rule issue. However it seems to something that gets under peoples skin.

I can't flip a "no mean plays" option for hearts.

HOWEVER maybe we can figure out a REAL rule option that would help aliveiate this a bit.


SO, what if we added a rule option that deal with the Pnp. What if you couldn't pass certain cards under certain circumstances. And If we had such an option, WHEN would it apply?

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Moordock
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:)

Post by Moordock » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:43 pm

Passing and pulling doesn't neccessarily apply to only spades. If someone passed someone else the AQ of clubs and a low heart, then proceed to lead only low clubs, one can get stuck with the queen that way too.

Certainly this is not the 'nice' thing to do to the person who is in last place....unless of course you happen to be in first place...and only of course if you can insure they can't moon or sun.

I am really interested in what some of the other players have to say about how this could possibly be used as a setting.

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Post by Dust In The Wind » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:54 pm

The PnP as you said is a viable play in hearts and where the issue comes is when a player with the highest score gets passed the Queen and or ace/king combination and the player passing it plays spades to lead those out resulting in the high player taking the queen.

It may be possible if under what you have Stated Jonas that with a certain number of spades a player having the queen could not despose of it say 3 or 4 spades if they are in first or second place. However, since this is not a rule in hearts it would be best that it was an option that can be selected by the host and stand as NO PnP option.

I am sure others have suggestions an how they would like to see this and will stop here.

JUST DUST

PS - Just as a note I would not Play with this option in those games but do feel there are enough players that would welcome this format
Last edited by Dust In The Wind on Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mr Nut » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:11 pm

there is no way this can be considered an option in this game. the game is meant to be played with 52 cards and also the idea of limiting when you can pull a card kills the whole concept of strategy. i am going to find it a heck of alot harder for me to pass to low the queen of spades and then try and lead him out when the "rules" will dictate the ending instead of the players. where this idea that pnp isnt a good thing came from i dont know. all the other websites i have played this game on have never had this issue and i think the motivating factor boils down too ratings. eliminate the ratings and just compile records and all is well. enable peeps to reserve seating for others and the people who want too play with a group of friends can and the others that dont care for that scene can just play with whomever they wish. your record will dictate the player you are and the host can decide if he thinks he wants to play with you or not. so there's my 2 cents worth. peace.

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Post by sandbar » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:20 am

:cry: Noooooo, don't change the rules, we all joined up when we tried Hearts and then bought it when we found we loved the game. :D
I play no-shoots 8) as everyone knows by now 8) I play with whatever cards I have, and if a player does pnp me, I just grin and bear it (or bare it :lol: ) and I try to return the favour in the next hand, if I can :wink:
After a few hints from Dust, Led and a few others I now don't eat? gobble? that dark lady just so I don't get zapped by other players, I still won't pnp other players if I can avoid it, but....... now at least if there is a low player I have passed it to and my cards are high, I will lead spades.
Isn't that the fun of the game? :roll:
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Post by HEXA » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:33 am

Incorporate (enforced) etiquette?

I do not think it pertinent to change the rules here. Yes, it isnt kind to pnp, unless what.. Its on the person about to win?.. I think it is just luck of the deal, luck of the pass order, and luck of who is seated where.

Choose your seat, and your oponnents wisely =o)
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Post by Led Zeppelin » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:20 am

8)
I think it is impossible to prevent "P&P" during the game.
It is part of the game although i consider ungrounded p&p on "high" players as unsportsmanlike.

But one tangible possibility I want to mention:
Players get dealt 4,5 spades including Q. Then they pass Q and start p&p by leading spades. That method causes anger and quarrel sometimes.
A "NoQ-pass-option" could prevent this.

Examples:
1., If a player gets dealt 3 or more spades including Q - then he can't pass Q of spades in the beginning of each hand.
2., If a player passes Q - then he can't lead spades anymore unless he has only spades left.

As I said: I consider this as an option :D
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:30 am

I feel too ONLY as an Option, how many would play this way would remain to be seen. Yes do hear and have seen a lot of disruption in the lobby or games due to players that feel that PnP is unsportmanship but it has been around since this game began. I can see another point also to make if player A is in the lead and passing to player B and passes the queen, proceeds to pull for the sure win is that unethical since the design of the game is to win? I had never heard of PnP being unfair until about a year or 2 ago but as always if I'm not in first place I am going to try to put it on the player that is in first including PnP that player if I have the opportunity.

The object of this game or any other game is to win by any means that fall within the rules of the game, if a PnP option is incorporated it's another variation of the game and some will play others will not just as we have players that will play no shoot or only orignal hearts.

Maybe as an idea to split hearts rooms you can make this a room option and players that want this sort of play would use that room. This also may be more feasible in that you would not have to maybe change the software package but the room options only as we have in other rooms with tutorial and such. Why I bring this option up is the same reason that when no shoots came about and people didn't see the no shoot and were stuck in a game they did not want to play because they mooned thinking it was shoot. This also caused a lot of problems until atleast the old players figured I better read the options before entering a game

JUST DUST
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Post by Sterlingchick123 » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:05 am

One thing that would improve hearts singles games (if added as an option) is that only the winner gets the points and the losers get equal points taken away, or no points taken away. this way people would be playin for the low man and everyone would be on the same page. as it stands now, everyone has their own idea of whats appropriate and whats not, and thus the nasty name calling and bitter feelings when people feel wronged.

as far as putting in a rule that you cant pass certain cards - i dont think it would solve anything. others have said it - you can "screw" someone by passing them high clubs and then leading the 3 and 4 so that the opponents can feel free to drop the queen. if that person was high, or even if they arent, they would get mad that you "set them up". people that play lowman would set up the low player that way, but would never set up the higher ones that way, unless they were themselves low and they were tryin to get the win.

i repeat - the scoring is the thing that would get everyone on the same page. ---->as an option, so that people can still play their slammer games if they choose.

one more thing - i never heard of pnp til hardwood. pnp is a good option as part of the overall strategy, and good players that get plenty of the right kind of spades, never pass the q anyway. having the q is having control of who gets her.

i think you should implement a rule that someone that cries pnp and creates trouble in games over it, is as bad as a person who drops the dirty deed in the lobby. an automatic ... whatever - 60 minutes no playing, perhaps?. as long as you are at it, clean up the place where it really needs to be, peoples vengeful selfish ways. ha!!!! there ya go for some ideas! happy holidays. 8)

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Post by 0oTrixieo0 » Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:03 am

Well, I know that I am not the brightest crayon in the box, but Good Grief, I thought that this was the OBJECT OF THE GAME! This could be the reason I got talked to so badly yesterday....hmmmmmm.....LOL I will Pass You The
Q Cuz I dont want her, and 9 times out of 10 I always get her back!! ROFL :lol:
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Post by Sterlingchick123 » Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:13 am

some more comments on pnp, specifically:

where are the people that are so againt pnp - u never see them in the forum stating their case - i cant identify anyone by name that is willing to be vocal about it. people that end up crying pnp in games are (from my experience) anonymous players being babies.

to give legitimacy to this pnp concept, (no offense) but its wrong.

i came to hw exactly three years ago from wp. the pnp criers were well established at that point.

but in three years, never have i heard a well known player state their case about it here in the forum.

no one that i have gotten to know on a name-basis has ever given this concept any credibility.

correct me if i'm wrong, someone.

thanks! 8)

p.s. i think if we implement the scoring rule - where only the 1st place gets rating points in singles, we should go one step further and not even list anyone but the winner on the victory screen - this way, ones placement in 2nd, 3rd or 4th is completely irrelevant! :D

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Post by Mystique » Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:48 am

Good Grief :shock:

Every game I have recently played there was PNP. You have not heard me crying to you Jonas.

It is amazing what I have found out tho. Seems the crybabies in the games are the ones who the PNP has backfired on. They PNP in the game but when they get PNP'd back they usually quit the game.

Sometimes regardless how good a player you are you just get bad cards.

I feel it is most important that if you want to play a certain way in a certain game then you play with players who play the way you do.

There is a certain player who announces before the game begins PNP is allowed. If one does not agree to the PNP then they have the option to leave.

Another player announces to the lobby all whinners, p-n-p-ers allowed. I do not get mad I get even. LOL Dat's the Spirit.!

LOL! I have played no shoot games where my friends have purposely PNP'd me to win the game. LOLOLO! I didn't quit.

Please remember this is JUST a Game.... Not Life or death.

Good Luck but most of all have Fun!

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Post by Primal Instincts » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:53 am

Best part of the game is handin off the dark lady to the one doin the most laughing...... :lol:
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Post by Mystique » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:06 am

LOL Yep it works everytime!! :wink:

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Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:36 pm

I played hearts with real cards and cannot describe here how some of that took place went the queen "CAME DOWN" or discriptive words used. I have always taken that as part of the game. You learned to take and you learned to give it. I have tried to play when I knew I should have dropped the queen and not only held back had that same person I saved from it come after me and all I can say is gobble.

Overall I come to one conclusion, I will play the cards dealt to me the best way I can, but I am not eating the queen for someone else unless it is going to help me win AND I will not tell you how to play your cards.... please respect my rights too.

JUST DUST

PS - BUT I think if this is to resolve the confilicts, a room (No PnP Room) where the queen is limited in it's pass would be the BEST solution.
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