Pass n Pull issue

LauraAnna
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Post by LauraAnna » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:18 am

If a player takes the time to play a game why should they recieve zero points because they come in second third or fourth. What fun is that?
Because the fun is in playing the game only. If you win, you are rewarded with points, if you lose (2nd, 3rd, 4th) you should not get points. If you aren't having fun JUST playing the game, win or lose, you shouldn't be playing hearts or many other games.
Then why take the time to play if you are not going to be awarded points. Seems to me would be a waste of time. Possibly lose players.
I'm really surprised anyone would think this way. I'm not sure how to respond but I know it isn't a waste of time. You will always lose players no matter what new rules or decisions you make here. I think it will make more players less rude and mean and also teach them better skills at hearts.

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Mystique
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Post by Mystique » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:41 am

What I see taking place will be high rated players only playing with high rated players and low rated players playing with low rated players. Each playing their own ratings.

How long will high rated players be waiting for games?

The high rated players will once again go for the low rated players causing frustration among the players.

Not all players are here for the competition. Some players like myself do play different rated players because you never know when you might find a good partner.

I do not see many high rated players playing with low rated players to teach them in learning to win a game especially pards. Too concerned about their HIGH RATINGS.....

You want to compete then play competitive games with high rated players like yourselves.

and BTW .... I have seen supposedly (good) players go into low rated player games to boost their ratings.

As far as PnP it will always go on because let's face it .. it is used to win regardless if it is a shoot, no shoot or pard game.

Perhaps for the new players so as not to scare them off from playing a pnp room could be set for players who do not mind the game for pnp players.

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Post by Sterlingchick123 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:00 am

what does high rated vs. low rated have to do with this thread? its muddying the waters of the issue.

p.s. dont tell me who to "go play" with, and i wont tell you where to go 8)

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Post by CalculatedRisk » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:53 am

I don't see where a separation would be necessary as the option Jonas speaks of would take care of it, if that is the route he choses to take, but I still feel there are other issues at large that impact the scenario as a whole. I don't want to see the players ushered off to another room unneccesarily. I like the social aspect of hearts too much, as do many of the players that spoke last night, and it showed.

Jonas if you get a chance, please review that chat, cuz there were so many good ideas offered. For every problem presented there was a viable solution offered. It was just a really good debate, and I was glad to be a part of it. Thanks players for talking with me about your feelings on the subject!
:) :lol: :D
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gecco
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Post by gecco » Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:41 am

OMG -- I cannot believe anyone is actually having a discussion about P&P...

It is a tool of the game. Someone misusing the tool is no different from someone who indiscriminately dumps the queen. Its bad sportsmanship.

If you are not going after low man, you are not playing the game to win... I will P&P low man in a heart beat. But let's face it... we have all had hands like this: no matter what you do, you know you're going to eat 20+ points. The only way out is to P&P someone other than low man. When it boils down to you or me, and there is no way to get low man -- well then, its gotta be you. But that is not poor sportmanship, it is the luck of the deal. And you can't create artificial rules to govern that. A proven track record of indescriminate P&P by a player is something else.

Just don't play with players who have shown unsportsmanlike behavior. Which is why I wish there was a personal no-play list, so you could prevent known bad players from playing in your game that you are hosting - because you know they are going to dump the queen or P&P high man

If you play in sanctioned cut throat tournaments, like grand prix, P&P is a fact of life. So, it should not be sheltered here either.

Lastly, only awarding points to #1 is silly. Sometimes, due to unsportsmanlike behavior of a bad player, it can become impossible to get low man. In a situation like that I most certainly will try for 2nd or 3rd ... but that kind of situation should not even present itself in the first place if everyone tries for low!

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Post by Sterlingchick123 » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:24 am

#2 and #3 spots are sought after in hw because they are currently rewarded. It's a no brainer not to try to position yourself in one of those two spots under the current scoring.

Basically, I am suggesting that u either win or lose a singles game, none of this 2nd and 3rd stuff. Even the record in your profile should show wins vs. losses - without regards to placement.

I'm thrilled, gecco, with most of what you said and we are 95% in agreement. the only difference is the 2nd and 3rd place rewarding. it skews the manner in which we play to playing for position vs. playing for the win.

in the old days, when we used to play for lowman until the bitter end, you would not believe the fantastic sequence of events you could get in the last 2 or 3 hands of the game. everyone likes the rush, i miss that rush.

8)

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Post by gecco » Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:05 am

hmmm

The only problem with your approach is that for it to work, all players must be of equal capability.

The rating system on HW is similar to most other sites and real life rating systems in bridge and chess; second and third position is important.

This is because; it is not enough to beat somebody, you need to know the rating of that person. Because if a player at 1600 beats a player at 1400 -- that is expected. But a player at 1400 beating a player at 1600 is a success even if the match is lost. And that is where the 2,3 positions come in.

So, that is why 2nd and 3rd positions are critical so that players can advance on a level playing field even if they dont win.

This sounds off topic at first, but, lets tie it in; a 1400 player in 3rd position can P&P a 1600 player in 2nd position to improve his rating even if the match is lost. Granted in the overal game you are not going after low, but you are going after someone lower than you, and you have a chance to improve your rating overall.

That is how most real life rating systems work.

Without that -- you would have a bunch of top rated players, and a bunch of low rated players, and no one in between and it would be difficult to advance.

If you wanted to only track wins for #1, everything else is a loss -- you would need a handicap system ... maybe that top rated players starts off with a score of 50, while newbie starts off at 0. Then, the game could be considered level, and you only need wins and handicaps.

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Post by gecco » Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:37 am

OH one last parting shot.

Your idea of tracking only wins, with no 2nd or 3rd place already exists on HW.

When you log into HW. Go to the League Tab, then go to room "Case's Ladder"

The "Case's Ladder" match does exactly what you suggest. It only tracks wins. You never drop down on the ladder by loosing. You only advance on the ladder by winning. Someone else advancing passed you will push you down.

Typically it is played with 2 humans and 2 bots. Only the human scores count. so its pretty binary, either you win or loose. There is no second place score.

So, there you go.... start playing the ladder!

Disclaimer -- if you play a ladder with 4 players, something I refuse to do, then everyone advances based on 4 players instead of 2 .. and I do not like that.

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Post by Sterlingchick123 » Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:26 am

I follow most of what you say, Gecco. My suggestion of having everyone lose equal points for 2nd 3rd 4th was too hasty, and not expanded upon. I would also whole heartedly agree that the lost points for losses and the gained points for winning should still be relative to the person's rating going into the game.

If a 1500 loses to a 1600 they SHOULD lose more than if a 1400 loses to a 1600. Similar to the way it is calculated now. So, not everyone loses the same amount but same amount and then tweaked for their rating.

This way, you are incented to play higher or equal to yourself, which I believe is best for all, and keeps the competition strong, and improving.

Now for those that say, this is something only for the high rated, I will argue that this will toughen it for the higher rated, also. If you notice, what do the highest of the high play with their highest nics? They play singles. Why? Because, perhaps they enjoy it more. And, perhaps they are limiting their risk. If they play singles they have 25% chance of losing substantial points by coming in 4th. If they play a pards game, the risk is 50%.

Food for thought. 8)


and yes, gecco, on your parting note - if i wanted to get into tourneys, i probably could get some of what I am asking for. however, i have never done it cuz my schedule doesnt allow me to absolutely definitively say i can commit to a specific time and then be there to play. aka busy. but its a good point that you make.

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Mompsu
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Post by Mompsu » Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:39 am

Hey Jonas, hey Guys.. ~ :)

Well, Im sure u all are surprised to c me here, as I have said
Good bye to Hw~ . Anyway, u shall all I know that I miss the
whole Bunch of my friends, anyone, whom I have met in my time as a crazy, wild, naive Shiney babe, who always tried to get
her way of truth, by putting herself right on the place of Opponents... :)

Ok, now about a topic~ Im pretty sure that it has been asked
already times ago here on the Forums... Hardwood is known as a
place of Choise.. I suggest Jonas, to make indeed an OPTION for a Fairplay. Soo.. IF player activates Fairplay, then. He can
pass the QoS along to others, no matter single or not, but it wont be possible to *pull out QoS*
BUT YET. A player with a most biggest Scrore, He should be able
to do it against a 1. 2.3. Place if the diffrents to the last place is about min.60-70 points.

On here.. I wish to whole Hardwood Hearts a very merry
Christmas, a nice presents with Love, and feel the Peace
in your Hearts.. :)

Also U have all a pleasant change of the Year, a better Year
of 2006. Btw. Im really curious if the famous words
of Nostradamus will go true, that something biggly will happend .. !!!

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Leelo~ aka Shiney babe~ aka.. !!!
Why the oldtime Players leave Hardwood.. Think about it, will ya !!!!

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Mystique
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Post by Mystique » Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:40 am

Thank you gecco! :D


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Mystique
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Post by Mystique » Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:43 am

Woo Hoo Leelo!

Merry Christmas Sweetie!

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NanaGram
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Post by NanaGram » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:38 am

/me is always happy to hear from the shiny pymbola. Happy Holidays, my friend.

gecco
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Post by gecco » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:49 am

Sterling said:

"if i wanted to get into tourneys, i probably could get some of what I am asking for."

I bet a lot of players on HW think the same thing about "Case's Ladder" if they even know about it at all. The reality is that "The Ladder" is not part of a tournament, or any other sanctioned event. It's just there. (There are some tournies on the ladder to be sure, but you dont need one to play on it)

I believe the link for "Case's Ladder" is miss placed on HW for that very reason. It should be right next to "Smoot's Cavern". If it was, I would put any amout of money that it would become instantly more popular.

I came to HW from DQ. On DQ the ladder is much more popular than on HW, and I cannot come up with any other reason why other than what I just said.

So, if you don't like people playing for #2 and #3 ... and you dont like indescriminate P&P and qos dumping ... join me for a ladder match! Just you and me, mano a mano

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Dust In The Wind
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:31 pm

I have played for many years on Case's and know how it's format differs but not all players like that format because of the fact you have the "BOT factor" but this post is about PnP and how there is a fair number of players that think it is unfair or in mean spirits to use it. Experienced players do know how to use it to their advantage to get that win. Case's was the first ladder I played on after joining the Hardwood evironment and have played a of games there.

What I believe Jonas is asking for is how to allow those that want to play hearts in an environment that is not PnP or limited as to how you can use PnP. If anything at all it should be an option that has to be selected rather than default and one reason I suggested a separate room is the controversary that will occur when a unsuspecting player joins a game that is limited and has found they can not play their cards as they expected they would be able to.

This is what occured when no shoot was not popular and players would join finding they have shot a moon and lost. For the most part I learned from that leason to always read the options incorporated in a game before joining. Not to say I have been caught in games I did not intend on joining due to the jump that occurs when a game fills.

One of the things that makes this site so nice is the variety of games offered through the options you can select or not select. For one I would play a 1000 point game against players I know very well and know it will be a long hard fought game where the lead change will take place several times during the game.

JUST DUST

PS - you can lookup my play at Case's under DBLDAM if you wish to verify that play there.
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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