Pass n Pull issue

Sterlingchick123
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Post by Sterlingchick123 » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:37 pm

yea i thought the ladder was a tourney arena of some sort. private message me gecco, on exactly how to get there.

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Post by gecco » Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:48 am

Good Point Dust -- I did drift away off topic, sorry...

I guess what I was trying to illustrate was that there already is a way for people to play matches, like on Case, that solve some of these problems.

Otherwise, P&P is a strategy of the game, and I believe it would be a mistake to attempt to legislate it away, by creating special non-PNP rooms, or whacky game options, or whatever.

I would rather see an approach, where you could choose to easily not allow someone to play in your match, if you know that person is a P&P abuser. That way, P&P can be used as tool when appropriate (And it can be) and no worries about being abused by the ignorant. Ala, a personal no-play list! If you worry about people changing their online name -- only allow established players +-100 on rating ... and you could keep most of the abusers out

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Post by psunuke » Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:59 am

Personally, I would say by this point much of what can be said in the "opinionated" sense has been said, and i would be just reiterating parts of many posts and while I do have my opinion (don't like the idea of a new option), there is a strategy issue involved that I think needs to be highlighted. Let me explain. Let's say we put this option in and I pass the queen, then I am forbid to pull it. Now let's say it's my lead and I have only spades and hearts. I am now forced to throw a heart, in effect, breaking hearts when it would otherwise be an illegal move. For anyone counting cards this could be a nightmare, and cause strategy holes which are just left up to chance, where there used to be strategy. Not only just counting is effected, as a player not of this caliber will also normally just know that the person has only hearts, but in fact they don't, they have hearts and spades.

Another situation comes down to what if it was passed and the passer has ONLY spades, this also would cause issues as the rule is violated (I guess would be an exception, but one that may be used "maliciously" as some would say.

Now let's say that passing of the queen is disallowed, I guess that takes care of most of these issues, but seems quite ineffective in helping the "high" player avoid the queen if say they ahve only the Q or the Q and one spade and are high and not allowed to pass it. Seems silly. The more variables that are taken out of the control of the players, the less degrees of freedom are left in the system. The less degrees of freedom, the less strategy is even useful, the cards dealt dicated the end, not the gameplay. Thanks for reading, have a happy holidays all.

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Post by omni_555 » Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:10 pm

Yup... Putting any form of limitations on what plays are or are not legal in a game would do nothing but make the whole thing a nightmare. Either PnP WILL be allowed, or it will NOT.

Bottom line, it IS a legal play. Whether there are some instances where it is not a "sportsmanlike" play is at best subjective.

How I feel about it is this... I will NOT complain when another player in a game uses this tactic AGAINST me, nor will I pay any heed to a player who complains when I decide that it is in MY best interests to use this tactic. If there is an option to REMOVE PnP from a game, I will AVOID any games which use that option, since I feel that it would be adding an artificial parameter to the game.

From what I have seen while playing, it is NOT so much the fact that the players who speak out against PnP are totally AGAINST the strategy, but that they want other players to be more prudent about when and where they USE it. And that is something that NO options will ever fix. Either players KNOW how to play, and will use the tactic "appropriately", or they will use it indiscriminately.

Essentially, PnP is simply a tactic that GOOD players have to learn to DEFEND against rather than whine and complain about it. I have lost games to players who used it to their advantage, and deservedly so, and I have WON games by using the tactic myself.

It's nothing more than a strategy that some can use or defend against better than others. 8)
Playing games should be FUN - seek out your own level! Don't frustrate others unnecessarily. 8)

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Post by Memphoman » Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:34 pm

Why on earth would U even contemplate not allowing P&P? Perfectly legal strategy. Folks don't like it, which I don't, as I feel I can win without it, but, one tends to know who does and who does not, and selects games and players accordingly. On rare occasions, say, with 1 plyr 50 pts less than all the rest, I might even result to it. Definitely should NOT be banned or even made an option.

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Post by traceyr » Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:44 am

I'm the one that starts off every game with "Hi, this is a Play To Win game, P&P OK. No whining please! :) TY&GL" , a few seconds pause for people to leave if they wish, and then continue on. Sometimes people do go, and good luck to them. Most stay and play as intended, and the games are good, often dramatic and usually pretty close. Anyone who stays and complains after that opening message is asking to be ignored / mocked / laughed at, really...

So I guess it's obvious what I would say - legislation against a legal and valild form of play is obviously not a good idea. It would make more people unhappy than happy, I suspect. So why not indeed set up a separate room for non-P&P play, or make it just another official method of play like no-shoot?

Reminds me of a recent competitor, one of the clueless ones - started off by saying "oh so YOU make the rules??" to my original message (well duh no, just saying what ones I apply in the games I start, eg no shoot) and finished off with an Absolute Classic, and I quote:
P&P is SO BAD!
: It is like saying you are a terrorist or something
and they were serious. :lol:

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Post by gecco » Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:48 am

nice approach traceyr

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Post by psunuke » Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:41 am

I dont like the approach, sorry. While on the outside it seems ok, it is most likely not going to help anything. There is no real rule envoked so a person who is in the "no pnp room" can still pnp, and at times it will be their ONLY option. So a person will still be free to pnp there, just "not supposed to". This isn't going to work. When somene is forced to, or someone actually chooses too, it will cause the same bickering. I don't see this as a viable option.

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PNP Part of Hearts game, like it or not!

Post by aceydeuce » Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:34 am

We are in the top twenty player ratings for a reason, we do know the game ( please do not take it as bragging ) lol!

PNP is part of the game, which is to win. Plain and simple! It is smart to do it to lowman when 1 is highman and equally as smart to do it to highman when one is low. Too many players on this site take it way to personally and get very insulted when done to them. We do however, feel to do it to highman when one is also high and has opportunity to hold, would be considered an unfair play and usually considered a weak play, or as some would call it "Rooke" play of the day! None of us are perfect, and yes some do intentionally PNP to be jerks or to get even for a previous game that they felt were treated unfairly, but in our "opinion" PNP is part of the game. Just keep in mind to do the same when the opportunity arrises to help win the game in a fair and competitive fashion...not maliciously! Peace all!

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Post by omni_555 » Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:58 pm

...Had an interesting situation arise in a game recently. Here was the hand that I was holding after making the pass...

Clubs: QKA
Diamonds: void
Spades: 89TJKA
Hearts: 568J

Obviously, after the first round of play, I had the lead. The player to my right (East) had played a Diamond on that first round, so I knew that he was void in Clubs. I COULD have played the two high Clubs I held and quite probably eaten a couple of Hearts or possibly the QoS if he held that card, or I could play out Spades. Hearts were not broken (obviously, after the first round!), so I chose to play my Spades, hoping that someone would break Hearts after one or two rounds and I could then exit that suit.

I played the J and then the T, drawing out all remaining Spades but the Q (turned out that the remaining Spades were pretty evenly divided!). I KNEW that the Q would have to come next round, but what real choice did I have here??? I played the Spade 9 and saw West drop the Heart T, North the Heart A, and then East foomed me a number of times and left the game after berating me for PnP'ing!!!

Now, I just have to wonder had I played my two Clubs before playing the Spades if East would have HELD that QoS (since she had shown to be void in that suit in the first round...). And if she HAD, she would likely have eaten that QoS ANYWAY when I had nothing left to play EXCEPT Spades.

(Just a side note here... During that hand, I managed to get rid of one of my high Clubs on a Diamond lead, ducked all the other plays and got rid of my Hearts, and managed to snag the JoD on the last play of the game when the Club J was led to my remaining Q!!!)

This might be an extreme example to use, but it illustrates the simple fact that there are players out there who just want to b*tch and whine about ANYTHING if the game doesn't go the way they WANT it to. I played in several OTHER games that same night where I saw players complain about another player's tactics. USUALLY what I have observed is that it is generally the LOSING player who complains heatedly about the WINNING player!

There have been MANY times that I have resignedly looked at my cards, having been passed the lone QoS, only to have another player deliberately lead out a Spade. It is somewhat of a sinking feeling to see all those points get added to your score early in the hand, but then again if I were not willing to take that chance, then I shouldn't be playing the game in the first place!!!

So, come on people!!! If you are losing, PLEASE don't go complaining about the LEGITIMATE tactics that another player has used to bring himself out AHEAD (unless, of course, you have evidence of cheating...)!!! Remember, the SAME tactics were available for YOU to use in the game! Blame only YOURSELF if another player got the jump on you by "beating you to the punch"!!!
Playing games should be FUN - seek out your own level! Don't frustrate others unnecessarily. 8)

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Post by Dust In The Wind » Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:08 am

Some people just don't like to lose and you are the reason they are losing so you will get the blame of using unsportmen like conduct and in their burned at the stake (or is it like a steak?) but anyways you as a players also have to play what's in your hand to the best of your ability (your responsiblity to all) and if you do so i think it deserves a "well done" and so be it. I am sorry if you think I am out to get you but I will tell you that I am out to win just as you are. I do love a game that comes down to one last hand and whom ever has the worse luck will lose and whom ever has the best luck will win but that is not the norm. I will try to sink low and if you are that person I am gunning for you but if someone else catches the friendly fire I am sorry and was not my intentions. AND if I am low you can bet I am looking for a way out while I am still winning.

JUST DUST

PS - Best of luck and may the CARD GOD's be with you
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Post by sandbar » Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:50 am

8) That dastardly queen, I know, I know, my heart :lol: sinks when I see that darn queen come naked, and you all know she should be dressed with at least one article of clothing on. :( Mind you, there are times when all you have in your hand are maybe 2 or 3 spades including the queen, so that is when I undress her and hand her over :wink:
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omni_555
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Post by omni_555 » Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:17 am

Yup, dressed or naked???... I just know that I'M not gonna pass the Q AND my only other Spade (unless that Spade happens to be the K or A!!!). And neither am I gonna hold on to that little lady if she is there alone or with only one friend!!!

Like Dust said, we are playing the game for the WIN - or at least I ASSUME that is why my opponents are playing!!!

Another situation that has happened to me several times is when third place player feeds me the JoD or maybe eats the QoS rather than have it fall to me. I understand that this action has just saved my game-butt, but it has ALSO saved THEIRS!!! Why is it then that when I subsequently drop the QoS on THAT player that they get miffed, saying "Last time I ever do YOU a favor!" Did giving me the J or keeping the Q from me give that player the right to think that I was going to help HIM/HER win the game???

Nope! I have performed those acts of generosity myself, eating the Q or feeding the highman the J WHEN IT HAS BEEN TO MY ADVANTAGE TO DO SO!!!

Grow up peeps!!! Use your skills to maneuver yourself into a WINNING position in the game, and use a little LESS energy COMPLAINING about how OTHERS play! If their play is THAT bad, then they will ultimately suffer for it be losing most of their games anyway! 8)
Playing games should be FUN - seek out your own level! Don't frustrate others unnecessarily. 8)

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Post by sandbar » Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:42 am

:lol: Yayyyy, go Omni, I couldn't have said it better myself, (well, maybe) :P :P
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