Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

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In2ition
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Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by In2ition » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:26 pm

The first 20 games for a new nic are a nightmare. Especially when you have several already well established ones. Earning 7 - 8 points for a win and losing 20+ for a loss simply because you got stuck at a table with sub 1400 rated players just doesn't seem right. Now i know the argument here, I have the option to kick players from a table that i have set. There are 2 problems with that, 1) It's just not nice, and people can tend to take offence and carry on about it in the lobby which is something i'm sure Admin would not want to encourage, and 2) There are times when there are very few players online, making it impossible to be picky about who you let sit at your table.

The great challenge is to establish a new nic with perfect stats. The almost mythical 20 - 0. I know a few have done it, and i know a lot more that are still trying. If you are lucky enough or skilled enough to get a nic to some sweet stats, then you end up have a 1600+ rate sitting at a table that will allow ratings more than 300 points below that. If we don't have the choice to set a table rate to create an even game, then at least give us even points. 15 points per win, 15 points per loss. Make it 10 if thats easier to swallow. Doesn't really matter how much, as long as it's even across the board. Once that nic is established, then revert back to normal. I'd love to hear if anyone else feels the same frustration and agrees with this idea, or maybe has a better one.

Thanks ev1, and GL in your games.
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maktub
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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by maktub » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:49 pm

I'd be more inclined to agree if we were given a limited number of nics. What you propose would be ideal for experienced players with new nics, but that isn't the purpose of the imposed provisional status, as you know.
It's not designed to help rate new nics.

It is designed to help establish new players.


And the fact that an inexperienced player is playing with or against an experienced player should be factored in the point distribution, IMO.


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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by Harden1313 » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:36 am

I have a few nics, I like to keep one that I can get on with and just play without the chit chat. Today I started a new one to see how good I could do (actually in response to this post) and have so far gone 13-3. I was pretty happy when I had gone 11-2 and was rated around 1630....and then I lost on some freak loner spree these two guys had, one rated at 1330 and the other not much more than that. Needless to say I'm not at 1630 anymore, still over 1600 but the hit was a big one. I know in a few games I won't have to worry about the randomness of the 20 game start but it still stinks that the losses are so much more than the gains.
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In2ition
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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by In2ition » Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:07 am

Harden my friend, I rest my case! If you had the option to restrict 1300, 1400 or 1500 players from jumping into a game where you had stats as sexy as that, then i'm damn sure you would have. At the very least i'm glad this post inspired you to try and achieve the mythical stats...... and i'm sorry that ya didn't get there this time. But 13-3 is awesome. I hope you rack it up to 17 - 3. It makes for a mean start to a fresh nic. But how cruel is it that you lost around 22+ points merely because you had no say in what kind of player joined your game other than to boot them out cold. If you are capable of achieving that kind of record, then you no doubt understand the techniques of the game and i'd dearly love to pard you and collectively sigh when HW deals up a loner game and trashes a gorgeous nic :wink: God bless random card generators eh! Please PM me and let me know who you are. I look forward to some great provi games with you.
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maktub
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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by maktub » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:47 am

You guys have no idea the way it was before. The provisional rating was so liquid that point distribution was +- 50 to 150 points. It wasn't unusal to be well over 1800 provisional. As you can imagine, people abused it and thus it changed to what it is now, the same point distribution as in rated games. So, after having to live through that, +- 10 to 20 points is nothing.

If I make a new nic, which I frequently do, I have close to 500 now, and if I partner up with one of my regular partners like Robby, how much more of an advantage do I have over a brand new player under those circumstances? Even if I play with random partners, my experience gives me the edge. Why shouldn't I take a harder hit when I lose?

So now you wish to set an "Anyone" game so that those who join are not "Anyone."

How shall it be worded, "Anyone within a 1400-1500 provisional rating"?
Or, "Anyone within a 1500-1600 provisional rating"?

What you really are proposing is to do away with the provisional rating system altogether.

And you wouldn't be the first to do so. ;)


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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by holy_diver » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:13 pm

In my opinion (just my opinion), I believe that experience does not mean that much. I have seen amazing players that have not been playing much more than a year, and have seen players who are only decent that have been playing while still in diapers. Also, you cannot gague the experience level of a provi player b/c they could have been playing the game for years before discovering this game site. Also, ratings, I believe, can be very deceiving. I've seen very good players with over .500 with decent to lower ratings, and have also seen the overrated players with under .500 winning percentage. Also, playing with a wider range of players might teach you something about the game, I know that I learned a lot from players who were newer players. Essentially, I'm saying that the way it is now is just perfect, the game is obviously not designed for a single person to win every single game they play, so you shouldn't be too bummed if it doesn't happen. Hats off to anyone who has gotten perfect 20-0 through provi, and to players who have gone 15-5. Feel free to comment on my post. I'm not the best with words so this may be confusing.

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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by Harden1313 » Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:49 pm

I ended at 16-4....gotta love pards that wanna call diamonds when a black bower was turned down and only have left-10 with small garbage to boot. Arggh. LMAO. :D I'm pretty surprised I got that good of a streak actually....pretty decent cards peppering the hands helped more than skill. :D

As far as experience goes, I spent years growing up watching my parents play with my uncles and grandparents, but it seemed every time someone wanted to teach me the game they had either drank too much to explain it or everyone at the table wanted to argue the finer points of the game instead of just hammering out the basics for me. So I actually learned the game about 3 years ago but only recently (in the last two moths) have started to play on a daily basis. To go along with that daily play I've been reading up on technique and talking with experienced players on here. So I think the experience angle really depends on whether you have at some point along the line of your play really studied what was happening in front of you and applied your losses to your knowledge bank of 'What not to do ever ever again'. Like G said, pay attention to the results of specific calls and you'll see a trend, and since I started watching the overall game instead of just plodding through it I understand a lot more now. I think you really have to want to get better at the game and see it from that stand point rather than just a fun game to play when you have nothing else to do and spare beer. (not that it isn't fun....or a game...you know what I mean) Too many people just repeat the same things over and over again because they were taught them early on and never significantly improved.

That being said...I am not the Wayne Gretzky of euchre....more like the Zamboni driver...or the towel boy. :lol:
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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by In2ition » Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:45 pm

So now you wish to set an "Anyone" game so that those who join are not "Anyone."
Nope. Please read the original post.
What you really are proposing is to do away with the provisional rating system altogether.
Nope. Please read the original post.
You guys have no idea the way it was before
You'd be surprised how long some players have been on this site. The very notion that the provi system has been changed before says that people (namely programmers and designers of the site) get things wrong sometimes, and experiment with different things until they get it right. They do not know if they get things right unless they speak to the people that play on the site. The system was wrong before. They changed it. One must wonder at the possibility of there being a better option yet again. And the people speak.
Last edited by In2ition on Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by cowboyschick » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:05 pm

I don't see why it would be so hard jus to make a universal point loss for provisional players, lets say 15 because thats what i like. Since a provisional nic cant join a rated game even if their rating is 1600 why should they be penalized as one. Just make it if you lose -15 if ya win +15 and then when you get out of provisional statis let it go to the normal way of things. Just a thought...and nice job on your 16-4 start!!!!!

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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by maktub » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:14 pm

In2ition wrote:
You guys have no idea the way it was before
You'd be surprised how long some players have been on this site. The very notion that the provi system has been changed before says that people (namely programmers and designers of the site) get things wrong sometimes, and experiment with different things until they get it right.
Read original comment. It was changed not because the programmers got it wrong, but because people abused it.

Why bother having provisional then? The purpose of provisional status has everything to do with player experience. That is its original design and intention. Not as a means to boost the egos of experienced players and wow people with amazing stats. I would guess some of those amazing stats were because of playing against inexperienced players in the first place. That's why I don't pay much attention to provi stats, even though I've enjoyed excellent provi stats myself, they don't mean much to me. What really counts is playing against your peers and those with like skill level.

Why bother? What is the purpose of having a segregation in the first place if experience is not in the equation and if point distribution is the same for all?


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Last edited by maktub on Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by holy_diver » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:25 pm

"That is its original design and intention. Not as a means to boost the egos of experienced players and wow people with amazing stats"..."What is the purpose of having a segregation in the first place if experience is not in the equation and if point distribution is the same for all?" yes i agree. I guess that is what I was basically trying to say, but as I said before, I'm not the greatest with words.

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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by In2ition » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:46 pm

3 Hands is all it takes to win a game of euchre. Explain to me the justice of losing over 20 points to a 1300 player when they get 3 loners handed to them...... and then gain 6 points when you have to play your cards down to the wire to win. 3 games of clever play and you still don't end up back where you started.

And to argue the other point, if players can abuse a system, then the system is flawed.
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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by callme7 » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:52 pm

I personally think Provisional games are a complete waste of time. If they are to be had, they should be for 1st time players to the site i.e. a one off for the 1st Nic created, not for players to open up a new Nic and qualify again, what's the point? It's a little like sending a College player back to Junior High as punishment. Hell a Provi game can be like a 1900 game with four top players. i just don't see the need to qualify Nics again and again. Just my opinion. :) :)

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maktub
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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by maktub » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:25 pm

I couldn't agree more!

Whats more, the server has the ability to tell the difference between new players and a newly created nic, so this is already supported in the programming.
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Re: Standardised Win/Loss Ratings for Provis

Post by In2ition » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:25 am

Just played with a pard that had fantastic stats. The last 3 games she lost over 60 points against players rated over 1500. She was near 1650, and ended up in 1580's. Where is the justice in that?? 17 games to get 150 points, and lose 60 in 3?? That is an absolute load of rubbish. 3 games where HW goes south and you can't call at all, and if you do, the opp has everything. Standardise the ratings for crying out loud. Let common sense prevail.
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