What would you do?

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GTO RACER
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What would you do?

Post by GTO RACER » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:40 pm

Ok.. here is a situation that I got holy hell over for the way I played it.

Keep in mind that this is not normally my method of play in this situation... but in this case I decided based on my hand it was best. I got reamed over it and was told that it was idiotic.

Please feel free to chime in your thoughts.

I am Dealer/S
Partner orders me up Spades

My hand is as follows:

K Club
10 Diamond
Left A 10 Spades (Partner gave me the 10)

1st round play Our trick - I took
W 9 clubs
N Q clubs
E 10 clubs
S K clubs

2nd round Our Trick - I took
S Left Trump
W 9 Trump
N Q Trump
E K Trump

Ok now.. at this point I have at south... A 10 trump and my kicker is 10 diamonds.
My partner ordered me up spades to begin with. I did not order.. but obviously would have.

Here's the question.

What would you lead back? Trump or your kicker? If Trump, which one... And Why?

I am not going to post how I played this YET.. I want to see what everyone's responses are first and get everyone's input. The way I played this was brought into question... keep in mind it is not my typical play but in this instance I played it differently than I normally would for reasons that I will explain later.

I would like everyone's input first before I get into my own reasoning.
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Re: What would you do?

Post by the count24 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:54 pm

I would expect my pard to have the right, so I would lead the Td hoping he could help with right or ace of that suit....then get last 2 tricks with my trump for the 2.
always play your best, and keep counting.....

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Re: What would you do?

Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:14 pm

In this situation I would have come back with the 10S figuring my pard for "right" making Ace boss. My line of thinking is to get the lead to pard with the lone 10D which I can throw off on their next lead and keep Ace for last trick. Fallen already is KQ9 and left and you have A10 and if need be you can trump in if D's are not lead back to follow with the 10D lead for last trick. If they had right it doesn't matter you were getting 1 anyways.

JUST DUST

PS - So now you have 2 of the 3 ways to lead back covered LOL
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Re: What would you do?

Post by Terry Brett » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:03 am

I would've put the game on PAUSE, rang partner and asked to discuss a hypothetical situation in euchre that has been bothering me. When I have my p's input, I would know how to continue and am vindicated!!!! :idea:

For the record I would've come back 10S on the assumption my p has the Right bauer and may have an outside A ( I am assuming p doesn't have the AC otherwise why didn't it get played?), which one I don't know and I can't guarantee he is void in diamonds, so I feel the return trump is justified as an insurance play. If p has ordered up the 10 on JQ spades and no outside artillery then it is ambitious. Of course, the state of the game and the opposition are a factor too.
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Re: What would you do?

Post by Dust In The Wind » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:34 am

So your partner gives you their phone number Terry??? LOL

JUST DUST
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Re: What would you do?

Post by XAmaltheaX » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:48 am

the count24 wrote:I would expect my pard to have the right, so I would lead the Td hoping he could help with right or ace of that suit....then get last 2 tricks with my trump for the 2.
Agree.
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Re: What would you do?

Post by callme7 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:15 am

I am no great trump leader but in this instance i would lead trump back (either one) and as long as your P has any off ace you get 2 points. The percentage is with your P to have an off ace because none have been played. If the right Bower is dead which would be very doubtful as this means your P ordered you with only the Queen of trump. Then you have to lead the 10d kicker next and hope to hell your P has the Ace of diamonds, but i believe you should give your P 1st choice here. In this situation i would bet my P has an off ace, let him tell you which one it is by leading trump back other than leading the kicker and hoping he has the ace of diamond. Summary: Lead trump back and let your P take the lead with the right (we hope) and lead his off ace, you throw your kicker off and take the last trick. :) :)

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Re: What would you do?

Post by GTO RACER » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:04 pm

OK..... Here is how I played the 3rd play in the above hand and why.

I almost clicked that ten of diamonds, as that is a normal play that I would have made. But something about the hand itself made me hesitate. I stopped and played out the remaining possible scenarios in my head. After thinking I decided to Lead back Trump. The trump I chose was the A spades.

Here was my reasoning. While most times I would punt and hope my partner would cut in on a void offsuit, due to the fact that I had already taken 2 tricks, in this case I felt knowing nothing about the red portion of partners hand it was best to give him control back. Leading the 10 of diamonds was a shot in the dark with no way of knowing if we would remain in control at the end of the 3rd trick. Leading the 10 dia would mean he would have to have the ace or be void in that red suit. I chose the spades so that I could show my partner my hand. I had played the left already, by playing the ace it allowed me to show him I had the ten left and assure him that we indeed have the point even if he did not have the right.

I felt that leading the trump back would almost certainly leave us in control after the 3rd play allowing my partner to then utilize any strong offsuit he had. If he then lead the Ace dia.. great... the 10 dia lead would have worked as well.... but for all I knew he could have held the 10 Hearts instead of it.

In actuality he had in his hand after he played the right, the 9 dia and Q hearts. 1st and 3rd had any off red lead stopped regardless so it really didn't matter.

I would normally lead off in many situations. For me to use a double trump lead was a rarity. That's how the bots play and I'm not a bot... though I wish I were sometimes.

I did not argue the point where I was 100% right or 100% wrong but my partner would not even listen to my logic behind the play. I felt that both options had logic behind them and I attempted to explain why I chose what I chose. This post wasn't about me being right or wrong.. I was initially inclined to play the 10 dia... a normal play for me. If I had only 1 trump left and 2 crappy off I certainly would have played off.

When it came down to the control factor, I was more certain we would still be in control with the play I made as compared to the other option.. FOR THAT HAND. Keeping control of the play won my decision on attempting a double lead back.

He told me that it was an absolutely fundamental error that I made and that he would not partner me if I made such mistakes again. This is fine we can all choose what we want to do in that scenario. But it concerned me.. was I absolutely that closed minded thinking both options were reasonable that I did not see his point that I was 100% wrong in my logic? I like to think when it comes to playing Euchre I am very open minded about alot of playing methods. I'm not out to prove right or wrong.... I'm looking for some reassurance that I am not in absolute error and just can't see it. Or if I was.. additional reasoning and logic so that I could understand where the fault in my thinking was.

Thanks for taking the time to look at the hand. I greatly appreciate it. While most tend to think that I think i'm always right about things that is very far from the actual truth. I enjoy challenging people's thought processes and viewpoints. It helps us grow.. well it does for me anyway. I'm not a paradigm kind of girl. In my career I am reknowned for being able to think outside of the box especially when it comes to problem solving. I love when I"m my viewpoints are challenged and I love to debate. I always walk away smarter and more cultured for it.

I may start throwing some more hands on here to just throw them out there.... when I run into those scenarios I have most difficulty in deciding how to proceed. I enjoyed reading everyone's responses to the scenario that I posed.

Thanks everyone!
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Re: What would you do?

Post by Terry Brett » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:28 pm

He told me that it was an absolutely fundamental error that I made and that he would not partner me if I made such mistakes again.
Btw, with comments like that from your p, i would send his name to the bottom of the barrel of future partners (jeez, hope it wasn't me :lol: ), regardless of card ability, he's obviously missing some finer points in player etiquette.
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Re: What would you do?

Post by callme7 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:13 pm

Lol, nice one Terry, still love your sense of humour. I believe the right lead was made in leading trump, as it gave your P the opportunity to lead their off ace back if they had one, they didn't so in the end it mattered not. Since no diamond had been played at that stage of the hand and with the possibility of six being out there, the odds of your P having one in hand was good, but haha, is it the ace. The best way to find out if your P had the ace of diamond was to lead trump, not the kicker, he would lead it back after taking the 3rd trick with the right. I would like to hear your Ps response to this. On the 4th lead it is fundamentally wrong to lead trump, unless you know or are pretty sure that you can take the last two tricks, not the 3rd lead, as i believe you are still fishing, and you had two trump in hand, the opposition had none. Gimme a Roulette wheel any day, it's easier. :) :)

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Re: What would you do?

Post by Dust In The Wind » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:24 pm

I like your thinking there GTO and know it wasn't me as your pard (LOL), I don't put my pards down no matter how stupid they may be..... OOOPPPPSSSS!!!

Your thinking on the Ace was right too since there was only the 10 and right left out there, letting your pard know you had both (since you picked up 10S) was a smart move and should have noted that myself. Lot different playing cards than writting card play. Had the pard not had the right, I would have lead back the last spade to give odds that they throw away the wrong card a better chance for my 10D. Your only chance here to get the 2 was your pard having a high card in an offsuit anyways and getting the lead back to them so you could play your last trump on whatever and it's yours.

JUST DUST

PS - I have on occassion asked my monitor to relay a message to my pard.... just never gets there, hard to find a good monitor anymore.
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Re: What would you do?

Post by GTO RACER » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:38 pm

****NOTE****

This is from Justin not me....


please post this from me as i dont have a login...

Assuming ur p has the right.... there are a bunch of hands where u get 5 either way and a bunch of hand where u get stopped....

the determinant of how to play the hand is obviously the hands that the way its played makes a difference..

YOUR WAY

if you lead trump and ur p has the right... the hands where u get 5 from the lead that you wouldnt have happened from leading off (aka leading trump is teh right play) are if ur p has either the 9,jack,queen, or king of diamonds and the ace of hearts.... so 4 hands... im assuming here that ur p doesnt have the ace of clubs and that the oppenents have the ace of diamonds... because if ur p has the ace of dia obviously u get 5....

to explain to everyone.. if u relead trump.. then ur p plays the ace off u throw away ur 10 and get the last trick... and if u led the 10 the opponents take it with the ace and u get stopped.... 4 ways

MY WAY

now the hand where if u lead off correctly and get 5 where if u lead you wouldnt is any combination of 2 hearts in ur p's hand... 9/10 9/jack 9/queen 9/king 10/king 10/quen 10 jack jack queen jack king queen king...... which is 10 hands.... im not counting ace anything of hearts and low because i assume ud get 5 if u reled trump.....

so then if u play ur 10 off ur p trumps then u get the last 2... and if u led trump ur p takes it and ur **** with 2 hearts left

ur p has more then liekly the only trump left... if he doesnt and they do.. then u get 1 either way... if its burried then leading trump makes no difference as ur p prolly has ace ace left..... if u break down the percentages the correct play is always leading offsuit...



also if the oppenents are sitting there with 2 hearts and ur p has ace 9, ace 10 ace jack, or ace queen... then also leading off is the right play..... basicly its like 14-4... so leading off suit is 77% the right play all things considered...


ty!
Last edited by GTO RACER on Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What would you do?

Post by callme7 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:05 pm

I would probably be one of the most avid off suit leaders in the game and in some scenarios leading 10d back would be better, but at that stage of the hand with NOT one off suit ace having been played, the odds are with leading trump back on the 3rd lead and hoping your P has ANY ace, NOT just the ace of diamonds. Let your P lead the ace of diamonds or any other ace that he may have, stop trying to pick what he has, let him tell you. ( you have 2 trump left, use one and give him the lead ) Look at it this way, you get the same result by leading trump or the 10d if your P has the ace of diamonds, but by leading trump you are protecting yourself if he has a different off ace. Why would you cut your odds down here by leading offsuit? If he doesn't have any aces nothing is lost. ( I am assuming my P has the right ) I just can't see in that situation where hoping your P has the ace of diamonds and leading to it, when you should be thinking, i hope he has ANY ace. Different if off suit aces have been played. :) :)

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Re: What would you do?

Post by GTO RACER » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:12 pm

Thank you Garry.... I agree totally which is why in THAT situation I led what I led. Others have disagreed and I don't dispute their viewpoints at all.

I think that it shows alot that I am even willing to post other's views under my own.... I enjoy everyone's viewpoint.. never tried to say I was 100% right or wrong...

My issue was with being told that I made a fundamental error in that play even though it was out of line with my normal play and that partner knew that.

Hopefully Justin will figure out how to post himself... lol .. oh and it wasn't Justin I partnered with on that hand ;)

Laters all!
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Re: What would you do?

Post by callme7 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:32 pm

Pleasure Janet. I have never been in favour of leading to a certain card when the options are greater by giving your P the lead, knowing he has at least one trick, you have one and probably two. Hell you have 3 trump left on the 3rd lead, ya gotta use one when no off Aces have been played, my opinion anyway. Great discussion though. :) :)

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