double leading off suite

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whee1s
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double leading off suite

Post by whee1s » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:57 am

I agree with Gary on the "double leading a suite" rule.But I need to ask though.Lets say your sitting first chair and dealer picks up hearts.You lead ace of spades and second chair follows suite and your p throws off and dealer follows suite.Now at this point isn't it good idea to follow with another spade if ya have one?The reason I'm asking is probably because the dealer more then likely kept 2 spades in order to short suite himself.So you relead spades, his p trumps it and your p hopefuly over trumps his p and dealer follows with his 2nd spade."Bam,bam" the first 2 tricks are yours.This also effects the "leading what your p throws off rule".If your 2nd seat and you ordered up the hearts to your p.1st chair leads spades and you take with the ace from 2nd seat and 3rd seat follows suite and your p throws off clubs.You would not want to come back with clubs because once again your p being the dealer probably has two clubs in order to short suite himself.So you would come back with trump or best off suite right?Just wondering if I'm looking at these situations the right way.

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Re: double leading off suite

Post by Net Ranger » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:33 pm

it doesn't draw a trump from the op though. if the other team bid any trump you play you want to either over ride one of theirs, or at the very least force a higher one from them.

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Re: double leading off suite

Post by Dust In The Wind » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:43 pm

Here too is paying attention to your pards throwoff suit and makes it a viable option to the next lead. I feel that the second lead into a suit is plausible however you may see 3 trump go and pards wasted trump. It can also go where if having the ace/king of a suit in the situation presented I would lead it a second time because they have no choice but to trump since the king is boss.

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Re: double leading off suite

Post by GTO RACER » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:18 pm

Honestly? Hell no. I try to avoid double leading if the person who ordered is sitting behind my partner. They ordered hence you would assume them to be the strongest person in trump. Don't bank on them being two thick in spades just because only 3 people had spades.

Only time I would do this is if they ordered and I WANTED the orderer to use one of his big ones weakening his hand cuz I have a bunch of little ones. In that case I may double lead hoping my P will use their highest trump to flush out the dealers High trump.

Always take into consideration where the trump orderer is in relation to your partner.

A better scenario in which to double lead would be....

You are first seat... 2nd seat orders up the dealer a Qh or lower.

You lead spades and take it. In this scenario 2nd seat would be assumed to be stronger and you know that the dealer has a tiny card. In this scenario I might be inclined to double lead because the dealer who will lay the last card will probably be the weakest in regards to trump as 2nd seat ordered it. Dealer may have a bigger card but also may not.

Honestly in 1st seat position i would lead whatever your P discared on the As round hoping he as voiding himself of that suit allowing him to "protectively" trump in.

I almost ALWAYS avoid double leading when the orderer sits to my right. They ordered trump therefore will most like be strongest and will take any trick your partner trumps in on.

Best scenario in my opinion to double lead on opps order is if the orderer is to your left. The point of double leading is to allow your partner to overtrump any small trump the orderer throws out.

Here is my biggest pet peeve on double leading off that I see in the lower games that iritates the heck out of me.

If I order trump and there has not been a trump pull and you are NOT leading back with a remaining highest off of the double leaded suit... DO NOT lead me back the same off. That puts me in a precarious position. since it's not the highest card left of the off I HAVE to lay a trump... because I have to lay a trump and there has been no pull yet in order to secure the trick I have to lay a higher trump and HOPE that the person to my left won't overtrump it... but this also forces me to use one of my bigger cards or it's just like throwing away the trick.

A double off lead is a very good play in certain situations only.... know when to use it.... think ahead and think of the position it puts your partner in relation to him using his trump.

There are some games where I find myself double leading often.. Then some games where the strategy is just not warranted.
Last edited by GTO RACER on Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: double leading off suite

Post by GTO RACER » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:28 pm

whee1s wrote:This also effects the "leading what your p throws off rule".If your 2nd seat and you ordered up the hearts to your p.1st chair leads spades and you take with the ace from 2nd seat and 3rd seat follows suite and your p throws off clubs.You would not want to come back with clubs because once again your p being the dealer probably has two clubs in order to short suite himself.So you would come back with trump or best off suite right?Just wondering if I'm looking at these situations the right way.
And on the 2nd part.....

1st some people play different. I have some friends who play high rated games and will throw off what they DON'T want me to lead back and MOST will throw what they want led back

Here's the catch.. IF they can help it. Depends on their hand. Depends on the person.

Most likely if you ordered red your p will discard shortest opp black suit..but remember.. DEPENDING on their hand. So in that case if I was playing a weak Hearts hand and need my partners help with that Ah then I would lead back spades if I had no off aces to play assuming they short suited themselves in spades.

Every scenario really depends and on position what you are holding what you ordered..what they discarded. And NO rule of thumb works 100%.

Try to look ahead and what could happen based on what you already DO know... and make educated guesses based on that. For me there are always exceptions to the "rules" based on instinct and the "facts" that I am aware of.

Don't get stuck on following a "rule."
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Re: double leading off suite

Post by Dust In The Wind » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:55 pm

It really does help to know how your pard plays to give you direction to their hand and why those that play together often do so well.

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Re: double leading off suite

Post by American Beauty » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:20 am

rule of thumb, double lead off if opp order.

If pard orders, of course that would be foolish. Partner wishes--begs, and pleads for you to lead trump.

that is put in the fewest of words, because who has time to read through it all?

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Re: double leading off suite

Post by callme7 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:28 am

In my opinion there are three main rules in double leading the same off suit, probably more lol. I have mentioned this a few times in the main basics thread, but it's an important one, so repeating it will be a benefit. (1) If you or your P make trump, never double lead until TRUMP HAS BEEN LED, if you do your P will be set 90% of the time. (2) If the player on your right makes trump and you double lead to them, it is imperative your P trumps real high or throws off, a small trump will get killed 99% of the time. 9 10 or queen of trump just won't cut it. As Janet said, double leading to the player on your right is not a smart thing to do, they always have the last say because your P has played. (3) The double lead to the player on your left is the one that can produce the dividends. If your P has the lead and lets say they lead the King of an off suit, i hold the Ace and 10 of that suit, especially when it's the long suit, (opposite colour to trump) i will take the lead with the Ace hoping that it's one of that players off suits, if i take the trick i will lead the 10 back of that suit, with some luck your P will take that trick, if not, the player to your left will have to play real high or be lucky. There are plenty of scenario's but these three are very common. Good luck. :) :)

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whee1s
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Re: double leading off suite

Post by whee1s » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:14 pm

TY all very much.So basicly if makers sits to your left it might pay off but if maker sits to your right BAD idea.I'm still learning and trying to break any bad habits i might have LOL TY

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