What was going on in this game?

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1TOP MUSH
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What was going on in this game?

Post by 1TOP MUSH » Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:45 pm

I’d like some of you smart euchre players to look at part of a log from a euchre game i played today. I'd like a 2nd opinion.

Below, I'll just show you the hands on which one player (my partner) bid: she took EVERY bid, except the 2 loners I took – and got set every one of them but 2 . That was enough for us to win with my loners but it seemed to me that this player was deliberately trying to lose. Tell me if i'm being paranoid and delusional? (I've highlighted the trump cards in her hand as well as the upcard, when she got it as dealer.) Out of the 9 hands on which she took the bid, I personally would have taken the bid on only 1 or maybe 2 of them. Is she just a really bad player -- or was something else going on?

Game was STD, but that wasn't a factor, because she took EVERY BID on the first go-round (except the 2 loners I did).

(I've shown the up-cards she got on her deal)

Hand 1: Deal North: Jc 10d Qd Qs Ah UpCard : 9d (She was dealer)
NewHand: 2 Deal North: 10c Ac 9d Qd 9h UpCard : 9c
NewHand: 3 Deal North: Jc Kc Qd Js Ah (I was dealer: got upcard of 10s)
NewHand: 4 Deal North: Kd As 9h 0h Qh UpCard : Js
(she took all 4 of those bids -- we got 1 pt out of the 4 hands)
NewHand: 5 Deal South: Jd, Kd, Ad, Jh, Jc UpCard : Qd (I did a loner in diamonds) (she was dealer for this hand)
NewHand: 6 Deal North: 9c Qc Ad 10s Jh UpCard : Ah
NewHand: 7 Deal North: Qc Jd Ad Qs Ks (I was dealer: got upcard, 9d)
NewHand: 8 Deal South: 9d Jd Kd Ad Ah (I did a loner in diamonds)
NewHand: 9 Deal North: Jc Kc Jd Ad 10s UpCard : 9s (she was dealer)
NewHand: 10 Deal North: 10c Kc Ac 10s Qs UpCard : Jc
NewHand: 11 Deal North: 10d Js As Qh Kh (I was dealer: got upcard: 10s)

GAME ENDS: Score : Team 0 has 10 Points Team 1 has 7 Points

I particularly liked hand 9 – she took the bid in spades, holding only the 10 and Jc (and got the 9 as the upcard). (Yeah, you're right, goosey -- but she discarded the Jd, leaving her 3-suited with weak trump cards). (I'm fairly new at euchre so maybe this is a stronger hand than it looks to me?)

The three times I got the upcard on her bid, I got two 10s and a 9; the other team got 2 jacks, an ace, and a 9 as upcards on her other bids.

I felt like she was deliberately trying to help the other team win. I asked her during the game why she was bidding the way she was, and she never answered. Nor did the other two players ever comment. When the game ended, all 3 names disappeared immediately from the lobby.

Your thoughts?
Last edited by 1TOP MUSH on Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:31 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Post by Gray Goose » Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:58 pm

NewHand: 9 Deal North: Jc Kc Jd Ad 10s UpCard : 9s


Mushy, sorry I didn't have time to go over this with you last night. If I was the dealer with hand 9, I would also pick up the 9 of spades. That would give me the 9s, 10s, left (Jc) and I would throw the Kc away, leaving me two suited, with three trump. Always a good call - I even have a bind for it, in case I get set trying it. But I usually make the point.

I would be happy to make that call, especially if it was std.

I will look over the rest of those hands as time permits today. Thank you for doing it this way. It gives us all a chance to second-guess a call.

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Post by wildfire_36 » Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:05 pm

You say Deal North and Deal South....

Guess I am slow, what does that mean? You never show any East or west deals. Which position was she in? Makes a difference if the up card is going to go to her or her pard or the other team, to me at least.

You also do not show what the up cards are for the last two hands. <edit never mind, figured that one out>

Was this STD? another factor that makes a BIG difference even if I am not the dealer being stuck. Sometimes I will take a risquer call to keep the dealer from making a STD call that would be benefical to them (such as a loner), them getting euchre points is better than them getting loner points)

I played (in a tourney) with a very well known player the other night. This players style (unbeknownst to me at the time) was to make very risque calls and depend on their partner for coverage. It was a BAD move, in this case. We got euchred 3 times and lost it 11 - 2 I belive.

As I said this is a very well known player and has a pretty good rating, so it must work for them sometimes. That could be the case with your partner here.

I would be interested in seeing the whole game log if you still have it.

P.S. - /me does not make any claim to being a "smart" or even "good" euchre player LOL :lol:
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sigh

Post by 1TOP MUSH » Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:20 pm

I'm probably not making myself as clear here as I could, Wildfire, but she took EVERY bid, except the 2 loners I took (and it's her bidding I'm questioning, not what the other players had or didn't have in their hands.)

She GOT the upcard only twice (I've noted the 2 hands above); the rest of the time, the upcard went to the dealer -- as her partner, I got the upcard on hand 3 -- I got the 10s (which was little or no help in the hand), on hand 7 I got a 9d as the upcard -- again, little help), and on hand 11 I got the 10s.

My point here is not what the REST of us had or didn't have in our hands, but on what she DID have when she took the bid -- bidding with only ONE trump (and no upcard), or only 2 (and often, 2 weak trump at that).
Last edited by 1TOP MUSH on Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by mickodie » Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:53 pm

For what it is worth, I have run into people who use a nic just for the purpose of throwing games.
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Post by Gray Goose » Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:05 pm

I am the naive one here, I always assume (there's that word again) that a player who plays this way is new. Not many players order up at EVERY opportunity, as a matter of fact I do not recognize this as a normal strategy in Euchre.

You could be right, that player could have been setting it up for the other two players to win by euchreing your team. Or, it could have been a new player who knows very little about the game. The fact that she didn't answer when you spoke could mean that she didn't WANT to answer you - or that she didn't know how to open the Chat box.

I will keep an eye on all three of those players.

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Post by wildfire_36 » Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:13 pm

Star did not post Mushy dear that was me Wildfire_36! LOL

I am not questioning what you and the others did or did not have. I am only trying to get a feel of what the up cards where each time and who they would have gone to. That can make a difference in the play.

The information is not complete enough for me to make call on what you are saying. I am not asking for any more information than she had at the time of making the calls. Who the dealer is that would be getting the up card, (and if it was passed), and what the up card was. All of those things factor into making a bid.

She COULD have been trying to throw it yes, but I MIGHT understand her bids a bit more if I KNEW what the up cards where and who they were going to each time she bid.
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hmmm

Post by 1TOP MUSH » Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:14 pm

I just saw this player in the lobby again -- her rating is now 1568 -- was 1456 I think when I parded with her. So I'm guessing she DOES know how to play the game, and chose NOT to, for this game in question. (and she DID know how to use chat -- doing only an LOL when I would question a bid or play).
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SORRY WILD

Post by 1TOP MUSH » Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:23 pm

(brain fart, sorry wild -- i fixed it).

The point is, it didn't matter WHAT the upcard was -- she took the bid every time (except the 2 loners I took before the bid got around to her). She just automatically took the bid on the first go-round every time she could -- 9 out of 11 hands. I"ll put the upcards in my original post if that helps you, but I really don't think she cared what the upcard was -- she was just determined to get the bid.

As I say, she took the bid holding only ONE trump in her hand (and no upcard). Was very odd.
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Post by wildfire_36 » Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:33 pm

Mushy dear, you are seeing only from one side, and relaying it one sided.

First off, you did not explain it that orginally that she took the bid each time she had the opportunity to, that does make a difference in the outlook of it.

That is why I asked what I did, it helps to determine how the player was playing.

Now I am seeing a different picture than I saw before your last post.

Without all of the information available, I cannot begin to "fathom" what a player is doing. And the way it is presented, it can only lead to the conclusion that the player was intentionally wanting to loose. And I do not think that is a fair presentation.

Do you understand what I am saying?
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Post by omni_555 » Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:02 pm

Like some others have said, it's difficult to accurately analyze what a player is doing without having ALL the pertinient facts, ideally BEING there... Also, I am CERTAINLY no veteran euchre player, but I will try to give as good an analysis as I can using the information given:
Hand 1: Deal North: Jc 10d Qd Qs Ah UpCard : 9d (She was dealer)
Risky, but plausible. You might have had enough to help get the required 3 tricks.
NewHand: 2 Deal North: 10c Ac 9d Qd 9h UpCard : 9c
Giving away even as lowly a card as the 9c would make this a risky call here. I would do it ONLY as a desperation move to try to save a runaway game.
NewHand: 3 Deal North: Jc Kc Qd Js Ah (I was dealer: got upcard of 10s)
Good call here. Pretty certain to not get euchred, and maybe even take em all with a little partner help!
NewHand: 4 Deal North: Kd As 9h 0h Qh UpCard : Js
Now THIS one was just plain STUPID!!! SHe holds ONLY the As and gives the Js to her opponents! Either a misclick, someone who doesn't have a CLUE how to play, or a GREAT attempt at throwing the game!
(she took all 4 of those bids -- we got 1 pt out of the 4 hands)
I would guess on hand 3?...
NewHand: 5 Deal South: Jd, Kd, Ad, Jh, Jc UpCard : Qd (I did a loner in diamonds) (she was dealer for this hand)
ONLY possible loser there was the Jc. Great call! Any time you have 3 CERTAIN tricks and a REASONABLE expectation at the rest is a good time to go alone!
NewHand: 6 Deal North: 9c Qc Ad 10s Jh UpCard : Ah
Jh and Ad with an expectation of a little help from partner would make this one plausible but risky...
NewHand: 7 Deal North: Qc Jd Ad Qs Ks (I was dealer: got upcard, 9d)
Another hand where calling it up would depend on how risky you like playing...
NewHand: 8 Deal South: 9d Jd Kd Ad Ah (I did a loner in diamonds)
A good risk here. If one of the opps had both the Jh AND the 10 or Qd you wouldn't make it, but well worth the risk since even WITH your partner's help wou wouldn't get 'em all then ANYWAY!
NewHand: 9 Deal North: Jc Kc Jd Ad 10s UpCard : 9s (she was dealer)
VERY risky. Only appropriate if the game was in serious trouble...
NewHand: 10 Deal North: 10c Kc Ac 10s Qs UpCard : Jc
OK, giving up the J AGAIN with nothing off-suit to back herself up!!! DEFINITELY not worth the risk...
NewHand: 11 Deal North: 10d Js As Qh Kh (I was dealer: got upcard: 10s)
Again, I might call this up here to keep a dying game alive, but 3-suited with NOTHING off-suit is expecting you to get at LEAST one and possibly TWO tricks...

Overall, this looks like either a VERY inexperienced player (not letting some of those hands go to her partner to call) or else someone who knew EXACTLY what she was doing, and succeeded VERY well! It appears that she passed on only ONE hand the entire game when it came to her!

DEFINITELY not a person I would want as a partner, and I am known as a BIG risk-taker myself!!! 8)
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Post by Hero » Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:08 pm

Oh man, if I had a nickel for every time I was called a horrible player, or that I didn't know how to play; I've had people leave thinking that I was throwing the game. The fact of the matter is. . . I highly doubt that she was trying to throw the game on purpose - I think she was just a new player trying someone else's strat which was probably to be more aggressive. (leaving herself 3 suited instead of two tells me she doesn't really know what she was doing, for she was trying to throw the game, wouldn't she jsut throw her trump away?) While looking over some of those hands, I find myself agreeing with your p on many of the calls; however, I would have to see the actually hands being played out to actually make a decision. I simply believe that she was trying to be more aggressive, and just took it a step too far... an improved rating however tells me that she is getting better at it. She has already learned the first lesson of euchre... it's always better for you to call then to let them call what you don't have. With a bit more practice she will be a very good player... well that was my input... see you on the site
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Post by wildfire_36 » Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:24 pm

yes, without knowing who the up cards are going to, I cannot get a complete picture. (and thanks for adding them by the way)

But I CAN see that a risk taker MIGHT take those hands. The player I had as a pard in the tourney the other night sure did. And this was a singles tour, so they were out for themselves.

From what I can tell (with the info given) I would have to say this is either a newbie or a VERY aggressive player.

I am not sure I can see where they were purposely trying to throw the game.
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Post by Gray Goose » Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:42 pm

I'm thinking highly agressive.

Every once in a while, I find myself guilty of passing the call "because I get bad cards." When I do, my rating goes right into the toilet. So, I play with bots for five or six games. I call every time, and I let my bot P help me make the call. I am amazed at how many times we make the point, even if all I had in my hand was a nine of trump.

After five or six games like that, you go into real games with a whole new attitude.

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Post by LadyMo » Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:35 am

Just based on what is shown here, I know that some of those calls I would have made. I do play very risky, that is my style. But you also have to know how to play them when you play that way.

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