Very Interesting

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Doc
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Very Interesting

Post by Doc » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:38 pm

Obviously, my feelings about the lack of randomness and rating problems are no secret. If this is news to you; I'll refer you to my other topic: "slanted tables," or you could always just play the game and find out for yourself.

What I find even more interesting, is the lack of responce from anyone on the programming side of things at hardwood. Not even an uninformative "oh that's just silly......hey, look over there!"

I mean, if someone had said these things about a program I'd written. I would be a little more eager to come to it's defence; or, if need be, fix the problem.

Now, to be clear about this. The only way for the deals to be fair and random, is if the cards are actually shuffled (from scratch) at the beginning of each hand. And this is not a difficult thing to program. However, it would appear as though there are only a finite number of preset deals. Which may or may not be dealt in favor of players below 1500 or a certain color for a period of time. Perhaps due to the order the hands are programed to be dealt.......I don't know. So could someone who's suppose to know what's going on explain it to me. How many deals are there? Do they go in order in a given game? There are almost 500 Trillion deals possible, and I don't know how many more times I can look at the same hand and say "well that's interesting."

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Post by Jonas » Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:59 pm

The randomness debate has been a topic for years, and we've tested everyway we can, and it always comes up fine.


Theres countless threads on the topic.

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Post by clnbstr » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:58 pm

The lack of randomness exists in the real world as much as it does on HW.

What does not happen in the real world is the use of internet messenger services such as Yahoo IM etc.

The number of people using IM to cheat during games is increasing beyoud all proportions.

Is it possible to stop the use of IM etc; when in a game? or do we have to put up with the cheats?

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Post by Primal Instincts » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:14 am

There is prolly no way to stop it clnbstr....Just try to avoid those you suspect of doing it...
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:50 pm

I have developed a IM seeking missle and for $19.95ea you can send a message to those using IM during games but beware that it will not discern between idle chat and actually information gathering of said game and you take full responsibility if you target an innocent.


JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Post by Primal Instincts » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:11 pm

Only one missle?..... 8)
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:01 pm

$19.95ea <<<<<====== EACH limit to only what you can afford


LOL


JUST DUST


PS - Nope no special deals on multiples

PS - Produced by Ogre's of Da Swamp Enterprises
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Post by Primal Instincts » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:38 pm

ROFL....I think we need to send some missle's to the swamp for price gouging.... :lol:
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:30 pm

Price update....... For Primal the Price will be $99.99 all other get them for the $19.95.


JUST DUST


PS - LOL
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Re: Very Interesting

Post by Doc » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:42 am

Doc wrote:What I find even more interesting, is the lack of responce from anyone on the programming side of things at hardwood. Not even an uninformative "oh that's just silly......hey, look over there!"
Jonas wrote:The randomness debate has been a topic for years, and we've tested everyway we can, and it always comes up fine.
Not exactly word-for-word, but close enough.

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Post by Doc » Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:06 am

It seems the naysayers have presented an argument that is, at least, difficult to argure with. (ofcourse this is because they havn't had a single datum or fact to support thier claim with) So, I'll leave the issue that only a program that actually shuffles the cards can be truly fair to all the players at the table as a homework exercise for now. Basically if you don't have the mathematical intuition to understand this from my first post in this thread...nobody, save God itself, could make you understand this fact.

However, I would atleast like to know what I'm up against Jonas. So could you atleast answer my previous questions? How many different deals are there? Do they go in a certain order in a given game? What is the criteria for determining what hands are dealt?

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Post by euchredave » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:13 pm

If you think about it, when you play in the real world you get slanted results all the time. I know I do, this happens on HW just the same. No one can prdict the cards in real life or in HW. It is very random. So if you think about it, it does make sense. Most people have the thought that it is the computers fault, but it is not. Compare HW to real life games they are the same, as you will see:).

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Post by Primal Instincts » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:39 pm

Dust In The Wind wrote:Price update....... For Primal the Price will be $99.99 all other get them for the $19.95
That's it!...I will just develop my own and put the Ogre swamp missle company out of business... 8)
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:32 am

but his are primal


LOL


JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Post by Just_Ice » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:23 am

Doc wrote:However, I would atleast like to know what I'm up against Jonas. So could you atleast answer my previous questions? How many different deals are there? Do they go in a certain order in a given game? What is the criteria for determining what hands are dealt?
We have discussed this until we're blue in the face. Instead of being demanding, why don't you go back and look for all the previous threads where all of your ideas, and I'm sure many ideas you never even thought of, have all been discussed at length. I'll give you a few brief highlights.

1) You have the opportunity to CUT THE DECK anywhere you choose in order to distribute the 4 sets of cards where YOU decide, not where the RNG (Random Number Generator) decides. This is rather unique at HW.

2) SCE installed some manual shuffles in the the RNG shuffles to "reseed" the card order manually and move away from any patterns that may exist in the RNG. Again, you will find this is rather unique at HW.

3) You need to study how a RNG works. Once you understand then you will know that your cards at HW are being mixed MORE thoroughly than it's even possible for manual shuffles to mix the cards.

Having said that, I do believe that the deals seem to be one-sided more so than in real life, for longer periods of time. I mean, in real life, you might get 8 spades one hand, but no one may get 8 spades the rest of the game or rest of the day. On line it seems you can have someone with 8 spades on 3 or 4 consecutive hands. It does seem something isn't quite right. We have speculated on what it might be in the older threads, you should look them up... I think you'll find them interesting.

I can tell you that the deals at HW are no worse than anywhere else on-line. The ability to cut the deck should help distribute the good hands manually, and the included manual shuffles should help seed the RNG more frequently and give the feel of more random deals than at other web sites.

What we want as players is for the hands to average out over the course of 2 to 5 games and not 100 to 1,000 games. We compare the odds much more closely. Jonas has offered to look at strings of deals that seem to be uneven over 5 or 10 hands, to see how often it happens. He has asked that we post consecutive game logs, or the card distribution you saw, over so many games. So far, I think only 1 or 2 have done so. Until people start doing that, it seems the problem is small.

I'm not going to tell you that the deals are random, because I know they're not. All players want for the cards to decide the game as few times as possible in any given set. Trust me, I understand your frustration. But, I think once you realize no one (computer or otherwise) is out to get you, you'll feel better.

You have to accept the fact ahead of time that more games than in live spades are going to be won by the cards before they're even dealt. If you never come to accept that, your on-line spades playing is going to be frustrating and it will be difficult for you to have fun.

I've gone 30 games and not bid over 3, and watched my rating go from 1850 to 1600. Accept that as a challenge and test of your play and character. Getting upset won't change it. If you see you're getting the short end of the cards, try to win the game against the odds. If you're getting the good end of the cards, be gracious. For those games that are dealt fairly even and skill is the primary factor... isn't that why you play? Anticipate those and just get by with your dignity through the rest.

(I play spades mainly so I appraoched it from that perspective. But, the RNG, cut deck, and manual shuffles are in effect in all HW games)

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