Very Interesting

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Doc
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Post by Doc » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:19 pm

Am I not speaking english? Why do ppl keep arguing this? And why do they only use their feelings as support?

For goodness sakes, why is it just like live cards Dave? And why does cutting the deck and the manual reordering make it fair Ice? I do however appreciate your responce Ice (best one so far), so I'll provide some more support for my position, and just for you I'll speek spades. (for my peeps, euchre is very similar)

First let me clarify: I'm not loosing sleep over this; I have more important things in life. But I enjoy cards. And, like I said earlier, I would like to know what I'm up against.

Ok.......There are, in spades, 5.36x10^28 different deals possible (yes the ^28 means exponent... that's over 5 billion billion billion deals). That means if they have programmed in, for example, 1 million deals, then they have programmed in 1.86x10^-21% of all the possilbe ways to distribute the cards (that's about 2 billionths of a billionth of a thousandth of 1%).

Now, hopfully this explains why u see so many of the same hands and why ppl win and loose in streaks so often. But wait a minute Dr Brown, u say, they mixed them up and we can cut the deck now. Well cutting the deck means there are 52 different ways u can distribute the piticular hand. So, going from my previous example of 1 million different hands, that means there are now 52 million deals possilble.....this represents a 10th of a billionth of a billionth of 1% of all the possible deals. Basically, it's like fixing a space shuttle with duct tape. And as for mixing them up, it doesn't matter......you're still teeing off with a putter on a par 5. You see when they programmed in the hands, they made sure they had all the really good hands (ie 8 or more spades), and corollarilly all the really bad ones. In all fairness, we wouldn't have much fun if they weren't there. But that leaves less room for all the middle ones. But, with these big/bad hands comes big/bad wins/losses and more of them.

So, again, I'd just like to know how many hands we're actually are talking about and what determines who gets 'em. Not a life or death matter, but it never hurts to know your opponent.

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Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:51 pm

Most of the times when I am on one of those losing streaks I get out the losing streak nic and play until it changes. But again I use the cut-deck option for every game I setup and will "tap" or hit the top card until I feel I need to change said luck. I deal with it..... and it goes away.

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Post by Just_Ice » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:04 pm

Doc, they are not pre-set deals. The shuffles are made by a Random Number Generator. The possibilities are the same as live shuffles. You should study these (RNGs). It is simply an algorithm that sorts and mixes the position of the cards to a scale approaching random. Google it.

Also, when you cut the cards you are only given 3 extra alternatives on how to distribute the cards, not 51. The sets themselves do not change, only who the sets go to. Think through exactly what happens when you cut the deck logically, and you will see there are 1 of 4 possibilities, one of which being the original mix presented to you before you cut (that makes 3 additional). If you can not think through it then get a real deck and cut it, paying attention to the set of 13 cards each will get. You will see that the cut does NOT change the sets in any way, it only rotates the sets around the table depending on which card ends up on top.

Test it by putting spade, diamond, club, heart, spades, diamond, club, heart, spade, diam... all the way through the deck. Then cut it and deal. You will see 1 player will get all the spades, one all the diamonds, one the clubs, and the other the hearts. Cut it again, and again, and again... same thing. You don't "mix" the cards when you cut, you simply change who gets which set of 13, depending on which card you leave at the top.

The manual shuffles that have been programmed in simply allow the RNG to seed the starting point for the shuffle differently, and the cut DOES allow you to change who gets dealt which set of 13 cards. The RNG does not decide who gets the good hand even if there is one. It's elementary.
Last edited by Just_Ice on Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:09 pm

yes it is 1 of 4 possible hands, your distribution thru the deck will be the same on the multiples of the 1) no cut, 2) cut the first card 3) cut the 2nd card or cut the 3rd card.

JUST DUST

PS - if you do not believe try it with an unshuffled deck and the possible cuts, make sure you put them back into the unshuffled position each time before the cut.
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Post by Red Red_ Wine » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:21 pm

Ice,

In the scenario you have quoted you are correct and the same 4 hands will be held by the players but not the same player. It does not work when the cards are randomly placed in the deck however. Try it and see.

Your scenario only works with that particular “stacked deckâ€
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:24 pm

Once the cards are shuffled and cutdeck is an option there are only and only 4 possible hands that can be received. I only suggested the other because it is easier to see the results.


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Post by Red Red_ Wine » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:30 pm

Yes you probably are correct if one deals the cards one at a time to each player. But as far as I know in euchre you deal 3-2-3-2 then 2-3-2-3. Or do you deal differently over there?
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Post by Just_Ice » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:31 pm

Red Wine, I'm sorry to be blunt, but that doesn't make any sense.

You're saying if I use a sorted deck the cut does one thing to the cards, but if I shuffle, the cut does another thing?

I guess I need further explanation because I'm not getting it.

Of course, if you shuffle the deck you're no longer going to get all spades, diams, clubs, and hearts. But, if you shuffle, then pass them to be cut, the person who cuts CANNOT CHANGE THE SETS by cutting the deck. That's a fact. Maybe I've misunderstood you somewhere?

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Post by Just_Ice » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:33 pm

Well, in this scenario you deal 1 card to each player. If you deal more than that it won't work either way. A cut is a cut and does the same thing to the deck no matter how it's shuffled.

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Post by euchredave » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:36 pm

OK, if you cut the second card of the deck then you just made the deals different. Because the 2 cards are now at the bottum and there are 2 new cards that go to someone else. the cards are now split up. they may have gone togeather in a hand.

For example, if the right left ace was going to be delt to the person on the left and instead the cut was two cards then they would recieve just the ace and 2 different cards and they left and right would be barried. they do not go to someone else.

So, cutting the deck does not just decide who the hand goes to is the conclusion:).

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Post by NanaGram » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:37 pm

I just love it when Just_Ice answers a post in the Euchre Forum.

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Post by Red Red_ Wine » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:37 pm

Correct but it has nothing to do with euchre and that's what we are discussing here.
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:40 pm

It has to do with any card game that cutdeck option is allowed. Straight up and the cards are dealt in the one one one one config. Cut gives you for diff. possibilities no Matter where you cut them at.


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Post by Red Red_ Wine » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:43 pm

As I said before, correct, but we are talking about euchre.
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Post by Doc » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:44 pm

Just_Ice wrote:Doc, they are not pre-set deals. The shuffles are made by a Random Number Generator. The possibilities are the same as live shuffles. You should study these (RNGs). It is simply an algorithm that sorts and mixes the position of the cards to a scale approaching random. Google it.
Ok, how they came up with the limited number is really not the point. It's more the fact that there is only a billionth of a billionth of a thousandths of a percent of all the possilbe deals. And I would submit that they aren't completely distributative by virtue of that fact that really big hands are so common.
Just_Ice wrote:Also, when you cut the cards you are only given 3 extra alternatives on how to distribute the cards, not 51.
Yes, that's correct. I was thinking in euchre terms, where there are burried cards and it does change. Sill my point was that it really doesn't change things, and that only strengthens my point.

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