Very Interesting

Red Red_ Wine
Active Poster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:51 pm

Post by Red Red_ Wine » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:01 pm

Doc, rig a euchre deal so that each player receives A thru 10 of each suit, (4 9s buried).

Replace the cards exactly as they were then re-deal with a cut of the deck.

The result is 4 completely different hands.
Enjoy life

Red Red_ Wine
Active Poster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:51 pm

Post by Red Red_ Wine » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:08 pm

Now here’s one to consider. When one cuts the deck is it just some code on your computer or does it in fact send an instruction to the server?
Enjoy life

User avatar
Doc
Active Poster
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:38 am

Post by Doc » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:08 pm

Thanks for that Red, you're a real benefit to have here.

Ice was talkin about spades or hearts when she said there are only 4 possibilities. And I concured, siting that the cut deck option allows for 24 different deals in euchre. I thought that was clear; atleast make an effort to understand the post before replying, ok ppl.

User avatar
Dust In The Wind
Guide
Posts: 5343
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:29 pm
Location: North Ga Mts

Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:10 pm

You still don't understand only 4 not 24. OK someone else.

JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

Red Red_ Wine
Active Poster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:51 pm

Post by Red Red_ Wine » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:14 pm

Sorry Doc, but I assumed if one wanted to talk about Spades or Hearts one might do it in their forums. My mistake.
Enjoy life

User avatar
Doc
Active Poster
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:38 am

Post by Doc » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:19 pm

Red Red_ Wine wrote:Sorry Doc, but I assumed if one wanted to talk about Spades or Hearts one might do it in their forums. My mistake.
ASSUME = ASS of U & ME :o

Red Red_ Wine
Active Poster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:51 pm

Post by Red Red_ Wine » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:21 pm

Doc, it’s 23 different deals in euchre, you can cut the deck in 22 places because you either leave it “as isâ€
Enjoy life

User avatar
Dust In The Wind
Guide
Posts: 5343
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:29 pm
Location: North Ga Mts

Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:26 pm

WHat I am saying is try it, there is a multiple and the cards get distributed the same, use a euchre deck and see. put the cards in the same order before the cut and cut the first second third cards and see the distribution. the cut the 4th 5th 6th cards and compare the distribution, yes you get them ina different order but the 1st card cut will result in the same cards dealt as the 4th card cut and so on.

The only way to see this is to try it.

JUST DUST

PS or I could put them layout here but will take a while to create, I'll do it if you would like.
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

User avatar
Doc
Active Poster
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:38 am

Post by Doc » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:38 pm

Sry if that crossed the line and was rude Red. I do like to polk fun sometimes, but don't mean anything really.

And Dust I have no clue what you're on about :shock:

For those of you that don't believe me about the 24 different possibilities. Think of it this way: there are 24 different cards you can click on, and each will result in a different card being the turn card. Therefore there are 24 different possible deals.

User avatar
Dust In The Wind
Guide
Posts: 5343
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:29 pm
Location: North Ga Mts

Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:46 pm

Ok I was on the understanding the last card after the deal is the turn card.... right?


JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

Red Red_ Wine
Active Poster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:51 pm

Post by Red Red_ Wine » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:05 am

Doc, no problem mate, just a little tetchy I guess LOL

But it is still 23, leave “as isâ€
Enjoy life

Red Red_ Wine
Active Poster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:51 pm

Post by Red Red_ Wine » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:16 am

Should of said first 4 cuts not forth cut.
Enjoy life

User avatar
omni_555
Grand Master
Posts: 2946
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 11:32 pm
Location: South Carolina

Post by omni_555 » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:21 am

...OK, I have read thru this thread, and it is clear that Euchre is in a unique situation when it comes to discussing deals and the effect of the cut. In both Spades and Hearts, ALL of the cards in the deck being used are dealt out to the players, resulting in a deck of 52 cards being distributed as 4 hands of 13 cards each to each of 4 players.

This is NOT the case in Euchre. 24 cards (9 thru A) are used, but only 20 of these cards are dealt to the players, resulting in 4 hands of 5 cards each. Another card is turned up in the center of the table, leaving 3 cards that NEVER see play during the hand.

THIS is where the cut makes a HUGE difference in Euchre. When the deck is cut, a section of cards is taken from the top and placed on the bottom of the deck. This moves the cards that WERE the bottom 4 cards to a HIGHER position in the deck. Remember, 3 of these cards would NEVER have seen play in that hand, and the other one would have been the "turn" card. Wherever this "turn" card ends up in the after-cut deck CHANGES the subsequent order of any cards dealt AFTER that!!!

Let's take a sample "shuffled" Euchre deck (so that we will not have ANY potential confusion with someone trying to say that the deck is stacked).

Let's say that the order of the cards in the deck BEFORE the cut is as follows (I actually took a Euchre deck and shuffled it to get this result):

T Hearts
A Hearts
A Diamonds
9 Clubs
J Hearts
A Spades
K Spades
K Hearts
K Diamonds
Q Clubs
J Spades
T Diamonds
Q Hearts
9 Hearts
A Clubs
K Clubs
T Clubs
9 Diamonds
J Clubs
T Spades
Q Diamonds
9 Spades
Q Spades
J Diamonds

Without a cut, the cards would be distributed as follows (assuming one card to each player in rotation until the deal is finished. OTHER methods of dealing would INCREASE the randomness of any distribution seen here):

West: T Hearts J Hearts K Diamonds Q Hearts T Clubs
North: A Hearts A Spades Q Clubs 9 Hearts 9 Diamonds
East: A Diamonds K Spades J Spades A Clubs J Clubs
South: 9 Clubs K Hearts T Diamonds K Clubs T Spades
Turn: Q Diamonds
Buried: 9 Spades Q Spades J Diamonds

If the cut was made one-deep (ie only the top card were taken in the cut and placed on the bottom of the deck), the following distribution would be seen:

West: A Hearts A Spades Q Clubs 9 Hearts 9 Diamonds
North: A Diamonds K Spades J Spades A Clubs J Clubs
East: 9 Clubs K Hearts T Diamonds K Clubs T Spades
South: J Hearts K Diamonds Q Hearts T Clubs Q Diamonds
Turn: 9 Spades
Buried: Q Spades J Diamonds T Hearts

Note that the Q Diamonds is now in a player’s HAND, and the T Hearts will NOT be in play this time. And ALL because of the CUT!!!

It should be fairly simple at this point for ANYONE to see that there ARE 24 different deals possible here - 23 possible cuts, putting 23 different cards as the "turn" card and 23 diff combinations as burieds, plus the original un-cut deal. Altogether, there are 24 different sets of 3 cards that can be "out of play" during this hand, depending on the cut (or lack of a cut) and 24 different cards that could end up as the "turn" card. Just try "making" the cut at different places and sorting out where the resulting cards would go for yourself...

Note that the hands are not COMPLETELY different here - West gets North's "old" hand, North gets East's, East gets South's. BUT look closely and you will see that South does NOT get West's old hand intact! And the "differences" increase as the cut is made deeper into the deck. But the difference HERE is enough to change the dynamics of that hand!!! South has the Q Diamonds instead of the T Hearts!!!

I have studied the matter of randomness of the deal extensively in the Spades forum, and have come to the conclusion over time that even there where the cut only results in FOUR possible differences (and even then the differences are only in WHO receives each "group" of 13 cards, NOT what the make-up of these groups will be) the deal provided by HW is as random as it is practical to expect.

In Euchre... MAN, do I WISH that we could be so lucky in Spades and Hearts!!! A cut in Euchre TOTALLY RULES!!! It provides a potential DIFFERENT HAND for each player for EVERY CUT that can be made!!! You guys in Euchre have NO POSSIBLE complaint about the card distribution when you use the cut during play!!!

In Spades or Hearts, it would be a complicated procedure to get even CLOSE to the distribution randomness of Euchre. The ONLY way to come close to it would be to change the game dynamics so that it is played with only 48 cards, leaving 4 in the deck randomly at the end of each deal. This would mean that EVERY possible cut would result in a different set of 4 cards being "buried" for each hand, and since no one would know WHICH cards these are, it would open the game up to a whole new level of strategy and competition. What if in Spades the 4 high Spades were buried? In Hearts, what if the QoS and JoD were both buried, along with 2 high Hearts? What if the 2 Clubs were one of the buried cards in Hearts?...

It would certainly make for interesting playing!!! 8)
Playing games should be FUN - seek out your own level! Don't frustrate others unnecessarily. 8)

User avatar
Doc
Active Poster
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:38 am

Post by Doc » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:21 am

[quote="Red Red_ Wine"]But it is still 23, leave “as isâ€

User avatar
Doc
Active Poster
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:38 am

Post by Doc » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:35 am

And omni.....I wouldn't get too envious. Like I said b4 when I thought it made a difference in spades.....it still doesn't really change anything. On top of which, as you saw in your sample hand, it doesn't even change the placement of cards that much from the origional 4 ways. And there are other drawbacks, a euchre game only goes to 10 pts and can be over in 3 hands so we need all the help we can get. Just 2 decent hands for one team can mean a 8-0 lead and it's basically over......and going alone twice in a row is not something I'm a stranger to. Infact while playing earlier today I think I did it twice in the less than 2 hrs I was playing.

Post Reply