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Leads of a singleton Ace against a Loner.

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:08 am
by Joe Andrews
Check out this hand:

(A loner was declared by South)

NORTH
(Irrelevant)

EAST

Spades - A J
Hearts - Q
Diamonds - NONE
Clubs - A 10


SOUTH (Dealer, Maker)

Spades - K
Hearts - J A K
Diamonds - J
Clubs - NONE


WEST (Opening Leader)

Spades - Q
Hearts - 9
Diamonds - A
Clubs - K Q



Score: N/S 6 E/W 6
Up card: K of hearts

Dealer: South
Maker: South (discards the nine of clubs)
Opening lead: Ace of diamonds (West)
(UGH!)

After three passes, South picked up the Ace of hearts, declared a Loner, and buried the nine of clubs. With four trump, including the Left and Right, the call was justified.

West (the opening leader) tabled the Ace of diamonds. South ruffed with King of hearts, and ran off three more tricks. East eventually got squeezed between his two Aces, and made the unlucky guess of discarding the Ace of spades. South's King was now good, and he claimed a juicy four points. The growling was intense, West yelled at East "why did you dump the Ace of spades?"; East yelled back at West "Why did you lead the Ace of diamonds"? and the partnership between E/W was promptly dissolved - a Euchre "divorce" of sorts!

West is certainly (100%) at fault for leading his bare Ace into the Loner. This is the worst lead in this situation. . If West leads the King of clubs (the top of two touching honor cards), or the spade Queen, no harm will come to his side. (A trump is lead is also putrid; then again most defensive trump lead usually are). If South trumps a club opening lead, West will now know the Queen of clubs is useless. More importantly, East will know his Ace of clubs is also of no value. If East does not have any clubs, he can use his otherwise worthless trump on this trick (in case South has the Ace of clubs). In the actual layout, West will come to the Ace of diamonds, and East will come to the Ace of spades on the fifth trick - the best possible defense for their side.

Final Comment: After the actual lead of the Ace of diamonds, the defense can still recover, with some hard work, and a little luck. However, East must now read his partner's discards. West's discard of the spade Q on trick three indicates that he does not have a spade stopper. When he tosses the Queen of clubs on trick four, East must now release the Ace of clubs. This motif of discarding the Ace of the same suit (by partner) on trick #4 maximizes the defense. -And the partnership must have an understanding of this "convention". Yes, we know that all of this could have been avoided by the simple lead of a club (or for that measure, the Q of spades).

A "Euchre divorce"? I sure hope that E/W were not married!

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:40 am
by American Beauty
My first instinct would have been to lead the Q of Spades. If I have 2 aces I will lead one, but not if its a singleton. And I'm certainly not going to lead trump. Not that my trump has much of a chance, but I tend to like to clean out a suit... (old Hearts habits die hard) to give it a chance. You never know! so just in case, I wanna give my lil trump a chance (never underestimate my lil 9) (wink)... and that is why I would have gone with the Spade lead instead of the Club.

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:05 pm
by EzRider
the proper, and only lead against a loner with caller in 2nd seat was the Q or K clubs. lone aces are always saved as a last card stop, not a lead. when you have 2nd and 3rd top clubs, lead the K or Q. either caller has ace, or ur p does. this tells you something. if caller has ace, ur p can probably trump. if your p cant trump, it still tells you the caller has clubs, and if they dont tram, your King is likely the stopper, watching your p's discards. this is how I always lead when in first seat to a 2nd seat loner call. the only time you ever lead an ace to a loner is when you have 2 aces. ie, if east had the lead. doesnt even matter which one you lead when you have 2 of each suit. if you have a guarded ace in one suit, a solo ace in another...always lead your solo ace. if its taken, you are tossing your junk cards on 2nd and 3rd tricks. your p will be watching your 4th trick to see what you are keeping. tossing a J spades will suggest to him you have a boss spade for last card. he can chose the last of his 2 cards more effeciently this way

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:35 pm
by American Beauty
I disagree that it was the only lead. My queen spade lead would have faired well.

Also, another reason I would have chosen the Q of Spades over the K or Q of clubs is again, my Hearts training. I like to back up my kings, so as to not leave it vulnerable to an ace pull.

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:34 am
by EzRider
the queen of spades being a bad lead is a simple school of thought. you have 5 cards. 4 suits. most loners consist of 3 trump, 2 off cards. if you lead a solo suit across the bidder (you are lead, caller is 2nd seat), it tells you nothing if they trump your lead. if however, you lead a suit you have 2 of, it leaves you with an automatic sluff card if they trump and show they have none of that suit...as well, there are only 6 of any off color suit...7 of trump, 5 of next. when you have 2 out of 6 of a suit, if the dealer has one, that only leaves 3 remaining...odds are, your p wont have any and can trump a caller's ace. the lead of a solo suit against a loner is always the worst possible lead when the caller is in 2nd seat. you have to recognize that any solid loner is at least JJX of suit, Ax of an off suit. leading a lone suit tells your partner nothing. leading the lowest of suit when you have 2 will either draw a trump, or draw the bidder's ace. if it draws the bidders ace, you can assume they have more of that suit. if they trump you, they obvioulsy have none. you know the next card the caller leads will be trump to draw out your trump. you always always always lead what you have the most of across the bidder. the odds support that they will either over play you, or will trump you.
consider this...if there are only 5 to 7 of any suit once called...and you lead a suit you have 2 or 3 of...what are the odds your partner can overtrump a bidder in 2nd seat?
the thing to remember in any defence of a loner is...an ace can stop a loner anytime. why lead it? if its the only one you have, you can keep it for the 5th trick killer. unless you have a guarded left, you know the caller will drain you of trump...so a defensive posture against a loner demands that you draw to your partners trump or overtrump. this can only be achieved by leading a suit that your partner may be void in. odds would suggest this a suit you have more than one of, seeing as there are 5 or 6 of any suit on the table at any given time (considering only a lunatic would lead trump at a loner). with this in mind, the lead of the Q of spades is a best guess hoping that your p has the ace and the caller has suit. with the lead of either the K or Q of clubs, you have given yourself 3 options, instead of 1. the caller has suit and takes it....in which case you keep your remaining club; the caller takes it and your patner is void and trumps it; the caller is void and trumps, and your partner is void and over trumps. this logic is why I rarely block anyomore...waste of points, waste of time. most loners can be stopped by the right lead.

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:44 am
by American Beauty
I will take your principles and apply them, however you ignore the obvious -- my Q of Spades lead would have made it. ~:)

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:37 pm
by jabba the pug
<--- head hurts reading these msgs :shock: I just go on instinct.... Usually does wonders :D :D

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:17 pm
by American Beauty
Jabba, this game is loved by instinctive people. I cant tell you how many times I have led out a card that my partner is able to trump. It's uncanny.

Instinct is an intelligence that is based in reason, but expresses itself through the emotions, so its not pinpointable. But it is valid.
And I have found that I play best with the partners that I am most relaxed with, and therefore able to access and rely on this wonderful intelligence.. on this indefinable, undeniable, and this glorious aptitude called, instinct.

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:56 am
by WickedWedgieWoman
I gotta agree with AB-Luck, instinct, gut feeling whatev'a ya wanna call it.

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:17 am
by Dust In The Wind
When logic cannot tell what card to play, GUT instinct is the next best tool to use to pick the right card, have seen in many times and have played the 9 on a gut instinct because I really had nothing else in my hand that made since to lead and have my pard use their singlton trump for the loners single ace. Call it luck, call it gut instinct, but it is my decission and I made the right choice...... busted the loner.

JUST DUST

Re: Leads of a singleton Ace against a Loner.

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:23 pm
by cdoggg674
Plain and simple u dont go with your gut, you go with what is the best lead and there "always" is the best lead. I mean considering u only have 5 choices of what to lead, after playing euchre i long time its perdy easy to know what is "the best" lead
and not what ur GUT tells u

Re: Leads of a singleton Ace against a Loner.

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:45 am
by Todd Johnson
Being an avid non-blocker, I have forced myself to defend thousands of loners and I see no fault with West's playing. I would argue that East should understand how loners are usually called, and if their partner leads an ace first, and then on the fourth trick West plays a club, East should assume that they have another club.

Lets switch the hand up and see how leading a single ace can be not only the right thing to do, but smart as well.


(A loner was declared by South)

NORTH
(Irrelevant)

EAST

Spades - J 10
Hearts - Q
Diamonds - NONE
Clubs - 10 9


SOUTH (Dealer, Maker)

Spades - K
Hearts - J A
Diamonds - J
Clubs - A


WEST (Opening Leader)

Spades - A
Hearts - 9
Diamonds - 10
Clubs - K Q



Score: N/S 6 E/W 6
Up card: Ace of hearts

Dealer: South
Maker: South (discards the nine of diamonds)
Opening lead: Queen of clubs (West)

South declares a loner and discards the 9 of diamonds, leaving JJA in hearts (trump), King of spades and Ace of clubs.

West leads queen of clubs, which their partner follows suit with the 9 and then south takes the trick with the Ace of clubs. Trump is played for the next three tricks, and on the fourth trick West has now put theirself in a tight spot. Does the maker have a two suited hand, which is common for a loner? Or have they called with three suits, and is the ace of spades the stopper? West has now made themselves choose between their single ace, and their double offsuit.

We can also switch up the makers offsuit, which is another possible scenario. Lets say the maker has A jack of clubs for offsuit, and the same lead was made by West. They again made themselves choose between an ace and a double offsuit.

The only way to avoid this is by leading your single ace and keeping your double offsuit for the fourth and fifth tricks, hoping you have a partner who can read cards (and have a little common sense) in the event that they have the other two aces. :)

Now if you are four suited with no double offsuit, then yes it is wrong to lead your single ace. But in the above scenarios, you don't want to force yourself to choose as well. A good partner should be able to read your leads.

-Todd

Re: Leads of a singleton Ace against a Loner.

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:16 pm
by Ratwhowillbeking
After reading half of that I could have told you who wrote it (even if his name wasn't right next to it.) I can't wait to take your 2350....

Re: Leads of a singleton Ace against a Loner.

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:52 pm
by Tamara
I have to agree with Todd on this one :)

Re: Leads of a singleton Ace against a Loner.

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:00 pm
by callme7
Hehe, i love this. Todd, that is just another scenario lead, bent to fit a problem. It's NOT the best percentage lead over thousands of games, i'll bet ya on it. One day you will realize this. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Eennie Meenie

The G