The G with some Basics.

the count24
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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by the count24 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:07 pm

Harden1313 wrote:Ok I have something for you all. I just got jumped for leading next in the 1st seat when it was picked up by the other team. So I'll put it on the table for discussion. When you're in the first seat and trump has been picked up by your opponents what would you lead? I know it depends on what's in your hand of course so I'll give you two possible hands for say spades being trump. (though I'd like to have a general answer for the average hand too)

1: J - 9 hearts, Q of clubs, 10 - Q diamonds

2: A-Q clubs, A-9hearts, 9 spades

I've always thought it's pretty much a gamble when you lead and don't have much in your hand. Because the next suit has one less card out I think the chance your p has one goes down (increasing the chance of making his trump good) and it makes your random throw turn into more of an educated guess instead of blind chance. Am I right or do I need to rethink this? Hope I explained it well enough. :?
You need to give more information if you would like an informed answer. Did the dealer pick up this card, or did his partner order order it up? What was the rank of this card? What was the score at the time? What was the playing style of opponents (strong players making thin bids or average players making it only with 3)?
always play your best, and keep counting.....

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by Harden1313 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:42 pm

The question isn't really aimed at getting an answer for one specific hand, but rather a more broad sense of leading. Obviously the answer changes as you change the details of the hand. When I played this particular game it was a series of times that I had led next when the op's called it and my p was asking a general question as to why all her partners "like to lead next". I was leading next to both draw out trump to make my small trump work later (such as Maktub spoke to) and try to catch the op in seat two throwing a low trump which my p could cover (or even have my p trump in on the trick and take it if the rest of us all had next). It works pretty often for me but my partner said that 95% of the time she has seen it fail. I've seen that one of those results happens more often than not which to me seems like you're tilting the percent curve in your favor. (For certain situations only)

That being said I'm probably not doing the best job explaining it so I apologize, as I'd like to also apologize to any new player that just read my ramblings HA! I was trying to get more of a discussion as to the theory of leading the hand seeing as no one answer will fit. Perhaps I should have started a new thread. Cheers all. :D
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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by Underbelly » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:44 pm

I guess i look at what card to lead based on not just what's in my hand, but what suit all the players should be strong in. Same way as i look at defending a loner. I hope this doesn't get confusing but i'll try and explain.

Dealer has picked up a diamond, you are 1st seat. Ideally, your partner should be strong in hearts and 2nd seat would have called a black suit had dealer and you passed. if you lead heart, odds are that your partner will have the high card to take it, but the op will be able to trump it. I tend to lead my longest black suit, ace of if i have more than one ace. hoping that my partner can trump in on it. It's the same with a loner. I've found that there seems to be a greater chance the loner hand has the opposite colour offsuit. So, i'll lead small card from one black suit, and hold high card from the other black suit for the last card.

Once again i hope that makes some sense. I'd be keen to hear other views on that idea.

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by Todd Johnson » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:10 pm

For your second scenario, I would not lead the 9 of spades. You don't have any diamonds, so you can possibly get a trick with the 9 if diamond is led. Leading the 9 would mean your p has to have left guarded, three trump, or just the right and your two aces have to go through. If you don't lead the trump and try your aces first, you could possibly take a trick with diamond led, take one with your ace, and then your p just needs to get one without you bleeding them one trump. Much easier to euchre them without leading when you only have one trump and two aces, but two trump is a different story.

Also, hoarding aces is very predictable to me once I've seen you do it once. I'll expect you to do it every time, the best player is unpredictable and randomly leads/not lead their aces first. Leading the queen when you have the ace is a waste of a possible good ace. What if the first opponent has a 10, your p has just the right, and the dealer kept the king. You just wasted a good ace. Lead your aces first, and sneak a trick in with the 9 when diamond is led. This is the correct way to play by playing the odds. I'd like someone to explain why any other way is better if they think it is. :)
-Todd
Last edited by Todd Johnson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by Ratwhowillbeking » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:37 pm

And what would proving you wrong mean? Someone else writing another long post explaining the logic behind it? Sadly, I agree with Todd or I'd be happy to write that long post. When in doubt play the ace that has the best chance of going through.

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by Todd Johnson » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:29 pm

Ratwhowillbeking wrote:And what would proving you wrong mean? Someone else writing another long post explaining the logic behind it? Sadly, I agree with Todd or I'd be happy to write that long post. When in doubt play the ace that has the best chance of going through.
And I'm sure you agreed with me only after watching thousands of replays of similiar hands. :lol:

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by callme7 » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:17 am

Ok it's 1-1 anyone want a break? This has to be kept simple in my humble opinion. There are a thousand scenarios, shift one card and the equation changes dramatically. Josh, leading the Ace that you think that will go through is the # 1 choice as far as i'm concerned, the long suit. Todd even though the hand doesn't have a diamond, leading the 9 of trump has just as much merit in it as the hand holds two off aces and if the player that called trump is 3 suited the chance of at least stopping the 2 points is good, roughly better than 50/50 i think. Also if the person making trump is thin (2 trump) there is no way they will lead their last trump back, so with a little luck their off suit lead will be one of your aces, that is my second choice of lead. There are alot of ifs and buts though on what cards everyone has. Good discussion. :) :)

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by maktub » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:10 am

Todd Johnson wrote:
Also, hoarding aces is very predictable to me once I've seen you do it once. I'll expect you to do it every time. :)
That's exactly what I want you to think. ;) lol
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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by the count24 » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:29 am

Ok, there is still a discussion on a blind hand with no information about upcard rank or which player made trump. Playing an ace in this situation seems to be the general vote. If the maker, is to my left, an ace would not be the best choice. As G pointed out correctly, this is when leading that 9 is a better choice greater than 50% of the time. If the dealer is the maker... the ace in the long suit would be best most of the time.
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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by callme7 » Wed May 21, 2008 2:23 am

Wow i love it, i must be starting to hit top form again. In the last few days on no fewer than 15 occasions have i been called a cheat. Sorry but my Ps are the guilty one's, they called magnificently. I really don't mind being called a cheat, because what that means to me is i'm playing well. But when you have opponants who don't understand "Next" ya gotta forgive them. One player in an 1800 game said, and i quote "i didn't think you would stoop so low to beat us G" unquote. My reply was a simple, stop crossing the damn creek with absolutely nothing, you are beating yourself. Also most of them were calling against their Ps by calling next in the 2nd seat, then finding that their P was loaded in what they should have called for them. By all means cross, but do it right, and never call a player a cheat if they are calling next or crossing in the 2nd seat. Keep calling. :) :)

Eennie Meenie

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by Dust In The Wind » Wed May 21, 2008 5:43 pm

LOL, yes I take being called a cheat a compliment also, since I don't and won't.

/Ogre Calls Eennie a cheat

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TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by callme7 » Fri May 23, 2008 4:16 pm

Woohoo, thanks Dust, that's at least 16 now Lol. Two or three nights ago in the Lobby a couple of players were going on about cheaters in their game they had just come out of. I politely asked what they were actually doing to cheat, the respose was, how come one player calls and their P is loaded with what they called. With the two players that were accused still being there i went into watch. Three games later i came out with a huge grin on my ugly dial and said that those two players are Hoyle-ing it to the hilt. None of them passed, and if they did their cards were blank. I suppose when you think about it Hoyle was the biggest cheat to live, he cheated the others out of a call. The only thing that was unfair about those three games was the opponants in my opinion didn't know the real strength of their hands. I considered the cards being about 50/50, but the other team kept passing. The old saying is, Passing in the long run is not an option. Call or be called on guys. :) :)

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by callme7 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:58 am

Wow, talk about the perfect game. Please someone help me play the game my opponants played against me yesterday. i played and watched this pair in awe as they perfectly led and called for 12 games straight, for 12 straight wins. They stopped every loner against them with their 1st lead. The trouble with their strategy was, when they crossed they hit their P with such accuracy it would have made a marksman look insipid. I will not name the nics here but if someone asks me i will tell them. Both Nics were made up on the same day and at exactly the same time. They disappeared offline also together. Players beware. :) :)

Eennie Meenie

The G

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by callme7 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:21 am

Good on you admin, Why would you take that out of the Forum about those nics, i didnt name players. It' s 100% correct, they are cheating. Would you rather players get caught up with that lot. I give up, you guys should have picked it up when it started. Love your style. :shock: :shock: :shock:

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by tlj97526 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:16 pm

callme7 wrote:Good on you admin, Why would you take that out of the Forum about those nics, i didnt name players. It' s 100% correct, they are cheating. Would you rather players get caught up with that lot. I give up, you guys should have picked it up when it started. Love your style. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Eennie Meenie

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