The G with some Basics.

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by callme7 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:38 pm

Tammy, I know we are on different time zones but not different Planets. I filed a report on all nics with the information you need, before i put it in the forum. Sorry but everyone just gets so tired of nothing being done when stuff like this happens. But in saying that, i don' t think those particular nics will be back, they got the message. Yes, it' s not our right to do what we did, but hey sometimes things happen. :) :) :)

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by Euchre Buff » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:14 am

I am very tired of players blocking me out of games. It seems to me most players have no idea how to block so why do they do it. i aint the best player on the planet but i dont understand when someone blocks at 7-7 or when they are miles behind. Someone tell me i am wrong or give us an explanation why they keep doing it, they lose the game and then complain about the bad cards. There is a time to block i think, but the blocking disease on this site is crazy. G or someone give us an in depth example when you should or shouldnt if thats poss please. cheers. buff.

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by callme7 » Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:38 am

We have thrashed this to bits Buff, blocking is a mugs game, but in saying that i personally believe a well placed block can win you the game, a badly placed one will lose it for you. You are right. a 7-7 block is crazy to my way of thinking. That will put them 9-7 with your deal, you now have to get a Loner or it's all over because approximately 75% of the time the dealer will pick up and go out when on 9. Players should remember that 70% of blocks are wrong anyway, you would have stopped it. I consider the score has a lot to do with a block eg. if i am miles ahead and they turn a Bower up and i have a G hand, (G hand = zero) i will certainly block in the 1st seat. Blocking when you are up the rear is nearly futile. Although it has been said in the Forum before, there is a very good article by Joe Andrews on how to defend a loner, have a look at it because it will stop a lot of Loners. Learn to defend a Loner and learn how and when a well placed block can deliver you the goods. Gl. :) :)

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by The Hobbit » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:00 pm

help me out here. i made trump with the left, ace and ten. my p had the right bower and nine. it was my lead and i led the ace of trump, my p put the right bower on it and led an offsuit queen, this was trumped by the player to my right. when i came out with the left bower at the end of the hand my P went crazy and said, lead the left 1st before the ace of trump because it made him play the right bower and take the lead, as he didn't know that the player to his left didn't have the left. he said it cost us the extra point because if i had led the left he would have have put the nine of trump on it and left me with the lead to lead my ace offsuit to get the extra point. what do you think. hobbit.

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by Ratwhowillbeking » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:45 pm

Your partner was right...and wrong.

A lot of good players mistakenly play like there is no difference between leading the left and ace in this situation--but as your partner pointed out it sends a different message to your partner. Keep in mind it also sends a different message to your opponents.

Like I said your partner was right and wrong. The problem with using one hand examples is that I could easily come up with a situation where the opposite would be the correct play. Most of the time it won't matter--but you should never play assuming it doesnt matter. There is a lot of things you could add to the decision--#1 being partner/opponent tendencies, but also whether or not its a next call, what suit your offsuit ace is, the score of the game, etc. Without going into all of that.... in general, if you play the Left bower first it is a more aggressive play--you are a little more likely to come out of it with two points, and a little more likely to be euchred. Keep that in mind and play accordingly based on the score and how aggressive you want to play.









The Hobbit wrote:help me out here. i made trump with the left, ace and ten. my p had the right bower and nine. it was my lead and i led the ace of trump, my p put the right bower on it and led an offsuit queen, this was trumped by the player to my right. when i came out with the left bower at the end of the hand my P went crazy and said, lead the left 1st before the ace of trump because it made him play the right bower and take the lead, as he didn't know that the player to his left didn't have the left. he said it cost us the extra point because if i had led the left he would have have put the nine of trump on it and left me with the lead to lead my ace offsuit to get the extra point. what do you think. hobbit.

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by callme7 » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:53 am

Hobbit, good point. Josh hit the nail on the head. Personally i would prefer my P to lead the left because i would still have the main trump without guessing if the player to my left had the Left Bower, plus i am a very aggressive player and that's what i would do most of the time. Leading backwards does have it's merits and downfalls. As Josh stated it probably won't make too much difference, but it can, and you need to be aware of it. :) :)

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by Todd Johnson » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:48 am

The Hobbit wrote:help me out here. i made trump with the left, ace and ten. my p had the right bower and nine. it was my lead and i led the ace of trump, my p put the right bower on it and led an offsuit queen, this was trumped by the player to my right. when i came out with the left bower at the end of the hand my P went crazy and said, lead the left 1st before the ace of trump because it made him play the right bower and take the lead, as he didn't know that the player to his left didn't have the left. he said it cost us the extra point because if i had led the left he would have have put the nine of trump on it and left me with the lead to lead my ace offsuit to get the extra point. what do you think. hobbit.

If they trumped the second lead, after trump was led, that means they had the queen and king of trump. So most likey, they would have got the stopper anyways, unless you double lead trump. I lead the ace first, because sometimes an opponent has right and 9, and its funny to watch them play the 9 when you have the left hidden. Keep playing how you are.

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by callme7 » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:27 pm

Not that i have played too much lately but as usual have watched many games, which i enjoy. One thing which is very noticeable with the less experienced players is the non recognition of a possible Lone hand. You don't need the Bowers and Aces to have a go. Just remember if you decide to go alone there are (9) dead cards which represents 37% of the deck. Many games are lost by not having a go, especially if the deal is turned down and you have a very good next hand, if you have a sure point try it alone especially if you have a cross Ace as an off suit, it's odds on the opposition have that suit. Try it, you will be pleasently surprized many times. :) :)

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by callme7 » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:50 am

We played some 7s up games of Euchre at the Vegas GP, players love this option. Please or pretty please HW come on get this in motion. I will not ask again. :(

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by GTO RACER » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:52 am

Later Hardwood
Last edited by GTO RACER on Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by callme7 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:29 pm

Nice scribe Janet. :) I started this topic off nearly two years ago to help players with the basics so they would have a better chance of beating the exceptional players on here, oh yes there are those on here, and for the people that think they cheat''''' as Janet said, go sit in on their games and learn how to lead and call, they really won't mind. I stated to many people that after the Las Vegas GP i was going to take my leave from the site, i now have had a rethink, i will start playing like i did four years ago, A LOT. Damn my businesses, they run themselves anyway. Come get me. :lol: :lol: :lol:

PS. Janet lend me some nice cards please. :mrgreen:

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by wolf_139 » Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:52 am

ok i hate to say this but to say 70% of blocks are wrong... you set yourself up... i block.... ALOT!!!....and honestly its easy on HW much easier than on most sites. ive blocked with a success rate of nearly 99% since learning the tendencies of the HW deal. and i see everyone saying noone blocks successfully in the 3rd seat come to fire n ice and watch. i block on average of once a game and 3/4 of the time from the 3rd seat. and every time i do sit and watch me get zapped...yelled at by friends... told im a cheat by a few... its the funnest part of the game and its not intuition... and im deffinately not using messenger. nor a camera (seeing i dont own a digi camera or even a web cam). its just that obvious! to say 70% of blocks are wrong.... i think you better recalculate. unless people just block for kicks i will say it takes time to learn when to do it and when not to but if your sitting on a bower with the score 9/7 in my favor... your not seeing the chance to call a loner...like it or not. people get mad about it yes... but it will always be a part of the HW game untill something is done around here. i play about 7 other sites and never seem to have to block anywhere near as much as i have blocked on HW.

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by callme7 » Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:06 am

Hi Wolf, if you can block successfully at 99% you would have nics in the 3000 arena. I have watched and played euchre with the best players in the world and no one comes close to a 99% success rate, no one on this planet is capable of doing that. The main reason is because most of the time you or your partner WILL have the stopper, that's a statisical fact, or it wasn't a loner in the 1st place. I just didn't pluck the 70% out of my head, i watch 1000s of games on HW and other sites and over 40 years of playing most blocks are made incorrectly. Remember this, if you never blocked once you are better off in the long run, i'm not saying that you shouldn't block, because there is a time and place for it. Some top players on HW do not block, or very little, and they still stay around the top year in and year out. For the first year on HW i never blocked once and stayed in the top positions. More important than blocking is learning how defend against the Loner, but in saying that, there is a time to block, the scoreboard has a say in this. One way to totally fix the problem is to introduce the REAL game of euchre to HW, the 7s up option, then blocking becomes totally redundant. May i ask you this question, why are you blocking from the 3rd seat? To block from there on a regular basis is saying to me and anyone else that you P with, is i DON'T trust you. Invite me in to your games Wolf i would like to see you play. :) :)

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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by GTO RACER » Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:59 pm

Here's some actual statistical stuff that I have been tracking..

Keep in mind the law of large numbers typically inferences that 1000 is a good cross section of occurance.

Here are the numbers... or STREAK on the last games that I have participated in. These statistics include over 500 deals. Stats are not based on what was done by the players. Stats are based ONLY on the card deals and situations.



PLEASE NOTE: THESE NUMBERS WILL CHANGE AS MORE GAMES ARE PLAYED... THAT'S WHAT RANDOM IS ABOUT... BUT IF GIVEN AN INFINITE AMOUNT OF TIME THERE WILL BE SOME POINT WHERE ALL ACTUALITIES WILL MATCH THE PROBABILITY EXACTLY.


Jacks up 1st Deal of game 36.36% (Even with only 500 deals this is insanely high and 100% greater than the statistical probablity of ANY jack being up on 1st deal)

Jacks up to Leader at 6+ 9.09% (I tracked this one just to appease myself... the deviation is more than acceptable considering probability is normaly 17%)

Stoppable Loners 56.00% (of all taken.... were stoppable with either a lead, trump or normal playing of the hierarchy of the cards) This doesn't mean they were stopped.. but they could have been. This statistic will be radically different when playing with and against safe players. In that case the stoppable loner percent will most likely decrease significantly due to less risk taken in picking a loner hand.

Unstoppable Loners 44.00% Nothing not even the wrath of God was stopping these loners

% Loners/Hands Dealt 22.32% % of all deals where a loner was actually ordered.. being all these game stats are from higher games.. it will be higher than most

% Dealer Picked up Loners Stoppable %53

% Dealer Picked up Loners UnStoppable %47

% Jacks Dealt as Upcard 15.18% Below the probability of 17% of ANY jack

1st Seat Cross 35.71% Regardless of what was called.... based on actual cards in hand 1st and 3rd seat. Next would have Euched regardless of play

1st Seat Next 21.43% Regardless of what was called.... based on actual cards in hand 1st and 3rd seat. Crossing would have E'd regardless of play

1st Seat Dead 15.18% Regardless of what was called.... based on actual cards in hand 1st and 3rd seat. Any order would have E'd

1st Seat Doesn't Matter 27.68% Regardless of what was called.... based on actual cards in hand 1st and 3rd seat. Either Next or Cross would have scored

2nd Seat Cross 46.43%

2nd Seat Next 18.75%

2nd Seat Dead 11.61%

2nd Seat Doesn't Matter 8.93%

% Clubs Dealt Upcard 15.18%

% Diamonds Dealt Upcard 20.54%

% Spades Dealt Upcard 31.25%


% Hearts Dealt Upcard 16.07%

2nd Seat Dealer Passe J 100% CROSS In most cases this will be the weakest part of the 2nd seat hand.. ex. Red Jack turned down by dealer, 2nd seat has opp red and singleton Black. CALL THE BLACK... The statistical odds are in favor of it. This does not mean this will be EVERY instance. But I'd rather a 99.99 percent odd than a .11 odd.

I have more detailed stuff.. but that's just for me.. :) Since I'm doing the work. More in depth on leads and order based on hand composition. For the instances where i'm on the fence I'd prefer to have statistical probability on my side. Makes me feel better when I euche.

Ok soo what do I get from these numbers? I'll tell you...

1. Unless for score control or it's absolutely obvious blocking is a shot in the dark. But I AM a blocker and I hate it. I've backed off ALOT lately except for score control. ( have the stats on best leads, etc.. but again... i need an edge somewhere don't I?... so i am NOT sharing! lol

2. Next isn't best. Based on the latest streak Crossing is acutally better..... depending on my hand of course.. That is always the biggest factor.

3. I want to be the 1st deal... I want those jacks.. as the game progresses after the first deal the probability of a Jack being turned up will decrease significantly.

4. I will no longer complain when it is 9 to 9 opps deal and they get a Jack. HW doesn't really hate me ... it is way lower in statistical realm the frequency at which this is happening AT LEAST based on my last streak.

5. When my p turns down a J I Will ALWAYS cross the creek even if it is with a singleton 9 unless I have top cards in Next.


:)
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Re: The G with some Basics.

Post by American Beauty » Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:41 pm

callme7 wrote:The main reason is because most of the time you or your partner WILL have the stopper.
I've been bitten in the arse counting on this premise, but if I never was to block again, countering all the bad blocks people have made time and time again, I'd still be in the lead... statistically speaking. :)
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