Random Deal Generator

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Jonas
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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by Jonas » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:09 am

Gart wrote:Well, to be honest with you, I have no problems with them programming the random deal generator any way they want. But if they do, they should at least advertise something like:

"Play EUCHRE: for those that love loners and don't really want to use any skill but want to win anyway"

Or

"Who needs random cards? Let the computer decides who wins"

If they just truthfully advertised that the site is for players that just want to socialize and have fun and that the skill has been taken out of the game so it's "fun", then that's fine. But to advertise it like it's the "real" thing....that definitely ain't the case.
The cards are in fact random and we've gone to great lengths to make it so.

The problem however is that it might not feel real, and we're pondering having a mode that "feels real" even though it would be not actually random but instead we would just look for hands that are Unfun, or would feel unfair, and kick them out and redeal.

Obviously we would still keep a the true random deals, but one could opt to choose this more smoothed out distribution.

So basically we're saying that the dealing we have now is accurate and correct mathematically/statically. However, we would be willing to try to make an option to make it fell more fair for folks that don't like the brutality of random.

I will say on the record that we absolutely do not do underhanded things to prevent folks from doing well.
We do not plant loners or what not.
We don't target cards to certain players or seats.
Just wanted to make sure we're clear on that.


Its being technically as fair as possible is why we have been uneasy to even do the idea of the throwing out of odd hands, its potentially biasing, and thats something that we don't want to do. that said, the idea that we have wouldn't have any concept of who gets what cards, it would purely be checking the odds of a hand, and reshuffling if if the odds where beyond a certain threshold.

Gart
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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by Gart » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:19 am

That you very much for that response.

That is the most coherent, logical and gracious response I have seen.

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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by card player 1 » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:41 am

Here is my 2 cents. This issue was first brought up almost two years ago(check the date of the 1st post). Why did it take until now from someone at Sivercreek/Hardwood to respond. To me that is almost as upseting as the not so random card generator. If there is a "fix" why has nt it been implemented or when may it be implemented? There have been several key issues that have been brought up in these forums and it always appears no one with any authority addresses those issues. I can think of two other "hot topic" issues that have caused alot of disccussion that just goes no where: preventing people from going alone on 9 and I think it was the New Zealand Euchre style of having 7's and 8's in play.

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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by Jonas » Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:35 pm

Card player, this isn't a "fix" its an alternate for folks that don't like the spice of life.

From everything we've seen, the cards are indeed random, warts and all.

Random is not the same thing as fair. Its the heartless reality of random.

So think of this potential solution more of a solution for folks that need some kinder, deals that come with a warm hug, not a FIX for randomness.

Two different things.

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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by card player 1 » Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:38 pm

I think you and I have a different definition of random. Just got out of a game where 4 loners were attempted. Guess what- thats not far from the norm any more at the "supposed euchre site". Heres what I find really funny in your response from my post. You did not even attempt to answer my questions about the blatant disregard Silver Creek and Hardwood has when it comes to responding to issues its paying customers have brought up. If you igorne it does it make things all better at Silver Creek. Is SiverCreeks mantra "deny, ignore, deny, ignore" It would certainly appear that way. Does that make you feel all warm and fuzzy with a big hug wrapped around it?

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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by Gart » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:25 pm

I have to agree with CardPlayer1. The way questions, complaints and suggestions are answered and handle by Silver Creek reminds me of how annoying little children are placated by their disdainful parents. While I liked your initial response to my rantings, I did not like how you then answered CardPlayer1 the second time. This second response again shows the arrogance of Silver Creek and your impatience with your paying customers.

You have a faulty deal generator. That much is certain, and even you agree that "something" is wrong. But, instead of saying you'll FIX the deal generator, you put us down and say "for those that can't handle the heartless reality of random", there will be a new alternative. D'oh! The heartless reality of random is that it IN NO WAY MIRRORS REAL LIFE! Do you understand WHY I hate it so much? Why real life Euchre takes more skill than your pretend Euchre? Since when does the BROKEN deal generator automatically become the RIGHT one just because it's mathematically random?

I'll give you that real life shuffling is not truly random. Cards stick together, my dog can shuffle cards better than some shufflers I've played against, and the reality is, analog shuffling is truly different than digital shuffling. But give us a break. You should be ashamed of how horrible your deal generator is compared to real life and should be striving to fix it and make it a permanent part of Hardwood Euchre.

I'll tell you why you won't, though. You won't because you'll lose players. No longer will bad players get lay down loners and feel so good about their playing skills when it's really only the "heartless reality of random".

I also still question your comment about players being targeted by Hardwood. I talk to players all the time and everyone has the same story....win 15 games in a row, lose 15 games in a row. If that's the case, and I can't get above 1400 to save my life, how do people get to 2000 rank? There is no skill in most games that are played. It's loner after laydown after loner, but yet a select few people can get rankings in the 1700, 1800, 1900 and 2000's. I have had the luxury of playing with and against people in the 1600's and they play no different. Their game play is no different, logic no different, but yet they have higher rankings.

Is it because they cheat in real life? Two people on the phone with each other in adjacent cubicles? Whatever the case, I find it very dubious that skilled euchre players cannot break 1500 points.

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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by Primal Instincts » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:56 pm

Well I think he answered your questions fairly....since he didnt actually sit in your game and watch the cards being dealt......what do you want him to say?......it doesnt appear to be blowing off players questions to me.....

As far as not being able to match your rating with higher rated players and you assuming they are cheating......that isnt really fair.......maybe some players KNOW how to play the poor cards dealt to them better than others.....thats just my opinion tho.....everyone wants to win and nobody wants to lose......doesnt work that way...
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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by Gart » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:13 pm

You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say I assumed they were cheating. I said that I find it dubious that given the way the cards are dealt, that people get lay down loners constantly, that the "heartless reality of randomness" should level the playing field and keep everyone around 1500 rank.

If I hear so many people complaining, and see so many lopsided games, how does one "Cheat" the "Heartless reality of randomness" and get to 2000 points? On one hand the deal generator hands out these completely lopsided games where people can go on a streak of a dozen won or lost games where absolutely no skill is involved (how can you turn around hand after hand of 4-suited, no bower hands?), yet somehow people can get to 2000 rank? What, the heartless reality of randomness does not apply to them?

To understand my frustration, you have to understand that I am a very good, real life tournament Euchre player. I would pit my real life skills against any 2000-ranked player in a real-life game. But no matter how hard I try, I cannot win against a computer that hands my opponents loner after loner when I'm winning 9-1 and they take the game in the end.

My question is, how can it happen? There is no skill in this game, so how do players get to 2000 rank? I've see others talk that maybe the higher-ranked people play cutthroat because you've got a 66% chance of coming out even or ahead, vs a 50% chance in regular 4-person euchre. Maybe the 2000 ranked players only play with certain partners that they got to know and they trust? Maybe the heartless reality of randomness somehow doesn't apply to them?

I see a big white elephant in the room. I'm just pointing to it and asking why it's there.

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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by card player 1 » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:22 pm

How were the questions answered. By saying the unrandom generator isnt broken. Come on sheeple!!! If you play enough hands at this site you know the way the cards are dealt there is something fishy. But by saying nothing is wrong is worse. Two years people have been complaining. You would think it was just a temp glitch it would have worked itself out. But this has been going on for 2 yrs. Silvercreek/HW might get a pass but this isnt the only issue that has been brought up and ignored. But let me write something saying I might not recommend this site to friends and the mods delete it less than 1 hr from it being posted. But yet things wrong with this site that deserve to be looked at and if at all possible fixed go unnoticed or ignored. You tell me what is wrong with this picture. If Silvercreeks mantra is "deny, ignore, deny, ignore" I have a new for the them, "THE CUSTOMER IS THE BOSS"!!!!!! For example, a significant number of people here get upset when somone goes alone on 9. I am one of those, as there is no legitimate reason to go alone on 9 other than to try to rub it in your opponents face. Would it be difficult for Silvercreek to prevent that from happening, especially in Smoots(I'm not talking any tourneys). I would be willing to bet my house that it could be accomplished with relative ease. Has Jonas responded to that yet. No. Why is that Jonas?

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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by Tamara » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:22 pm

If Jonas, and or another HW employee changed something every time a player said they didnt like it then we would never be able to play, they would have to rewrite their program every day. There is no way to make a community game that is proper for everyone involved. I have been on this site for 5 yrs, and i can count on my fingers how many times someone i played with went alone on 9, and yet its such a hot topic lately.

To Galt: I am a 2000 player, I have never cheated, nor has anyone I play with to the best of my knowledge.We all have good days and bad days, good cards, bad cards. But when we have a 4 suited hand like the one you were talking about we still call something 9 out of 10 times, next, cross the creek, but we dont pass and say its not fair we couldnt call. And 75% of the time it works.

And this game is 90% luck, but there is skill involved maybe its just 10% maybe some days its 3%, but that percentage does make a difference between having a higher nic, and sitting there crying about not being able to get a good rating.

Live euchre is very alike HW in that the luck factor is always 80-90% I dont care where you play, being good means nothing without a decent hand.

I guess it all comes down to if HW is so bad then why do you keep playing?
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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by Gart » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:40 pm

First of all, nobody is asking the to change something every day. We see the same comments over and over which only means they're changing NOTHING.

Secondly, HW euchre is NOTHING like real life. I have done numerous analysis and it is vastly different statistically. To say it's not different is just naive and unintelligent.

I still question how someone gets to 2000 ranking. If we ALL have good days and bad days (which if you read between the lines just means that the broken deal generator is handing you fantastic hands or sucky hands which started this whole thread to begin with, so by saying this you are really admitting that this is indeed true) then why does anyone have a score over 1500? Yes, I know all the tricks in euchre. I block, I call next, etc. etc. but my point of contention is that no matter how GOOD I am at euchre, the hardwood game is not about skill. If that were the case I would do as good on the computer as I do in real life.

Which comes back to the original point. The deal generator is broken. Everyone knows it. Even hardwood admits it by saying they might program something more like real life for those that can't stomach the "harshness of random".

As a programmer myself, I know when something is broke. This is broke.

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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by card player 1 » Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:24 pm

I am not whing every time I get a burr in my saddle. The 3 most viewed/commented topics in this forum are the unrandom card generator, going alone on 9 and adding the the 7 and 8 style euchre to HW. Please tell me how that is whining. Better yet go to those 3 topics and see how many times Jonas or someone else at Silvercreek responded. When you do that and post your findings I will glady have a rationale discussion with an elite player such as yourself. Until then.........

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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by Dust In The Wind » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:07 pm

Jonas didn't say he would fix the deal to make it more real... what he offered was to fix the deal as on option to eliminate the unlikely random deals from the pool of available random deals that the generator can come up with. IE: the likely hood that you would be dealt an all spades hand with both bowers AKQJJ (with the 10 of spades as up card) would be eliminated from the possible cards you could be dealt since odds of seeing that hand are minimal at best. In other words he would make it an Option to fix a deck of cards to make the deal in such a way that hands like that would not be available.

With that same option with that hand depending on who the up card was too could call it up (not smart unless you think your blocking), go alone, order it to stop loner (doubt it would be passed by whomever owned that hand). All of these can create diff. results: Euchre, 2 points, 4 points. Depending on the type of player and the seat your in what you do and whether or not you are the one holding such a hand.

Now if you want to play a fixed deck so that you can get a better chance to win, I think maybe you will find a few others that will play it and more power to you.

I have played cards for a long time and not a bad player at ANY of the games. Just like "REAL" cards as pointed out here I have had "luck of the deal" effect me either way, what made the differences is knowing how to play the bad cards when they happen and minimize the damage or quit and come back another day when the winds have changed. Now if your implying that the server picks it's winners and losers I think your completely off base. In Euchre here there is a very good post on tactics, I recommend reading that, some very good points in there. To say everyone should be equal when it comes to ratings is not going to happen because we are not equal.... and the cards are what they are, what is dealt to you.

Yep I agree doing 7's up would help in this aspect of loners... UNTIL... players learn how or adjust to playing 7's up. It takes more guts sometimes to go loner in 7's up because your loners can be with any bowers, I can be holding 7,8,9,10,Q and only cards in that suit out. This to me is a more viable solution than adapting the deal to eliminate randomous.

Yep have heard in every game here, that anyone above 1500 is a cheater and that is not true, sorry got luck on my side, know when to quit, and know how to play with the cards I got, no matter what.

JUST DUST

PS - I can assure you I have NEVER cheated in ANY game (and it don't matter if you believe me or not) and I have high nics in all the games. You could also assume if you approached me to cheat, I would turn you in. I do in fact believe the cards are random, if not how would I get a high nic, since the server has already told me it HATES ME!!!!
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by Terry Brett » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:15 am

I believe that the bottom line to this discussion is simply whether you are enjoying the site or not. Somedays I love it, it doesn't depend on whether I'm winning or losing, it just simply depends if I am having a competitive day. Other days I get angry, sarcastic, and give certain people a challenge for fun (usually the guides or the moderators, but hey, thats another story) and I end up burying the cat so the dog can dig up a bone!!
I have been known to bag HW frequently, I don't believe I stand alone, but as per sentence one, it's about enjoyment, I enjoy it, so I stay. I suggest others question their reasons for playing too if they don't like the deals.
As for 7's I am a strong advocate for it, it certainly will make the deals more competitive and the wide dealing imbalance would lessen.

I. also, was in IT, including programming, system analysis, customer support and consultancy (free to HW if asked of course....lmao). It is very difficult to get a consistently impartial looking random deal generator. The best that HW can do is get a 3rd party to inspect a series of deals as a snapshot to determine the randomness and sign it off accordingly, this happens in the moneyed Poker sites.
I shoot my mouth (typing fingers usually) off at the guides, the moderators and anyone else whom takes my fancy, but in my humble and verbose opinion you will have to travel many a mile to improve the product that HW has provided.

Save the planet!!! Less loners, less methane produced!!! Create a 7's deck to reduce greenhouse emissions. 8) :idea:
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Re: Random Deal Generator

Post by callme7 » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:58 pm

Well put Terry, i haven't any more to say on this subject. The Randomness will be so much fairer with the 7s up option. I find it hard to fathom why it hasn't been done by now, it's only an additional option, not a total change to what is played now. :) :)

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