Purpose?

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Dead Presidents
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Purpose?

Post by Dead Presidents » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:14 pm

This topic is simple...What is the purpose of a rating system
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Dust In The Wind
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:19 pm

To feed our competitive nature with some sort of award for success or failure.


JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Galt
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Post by Galt » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:47 pm

To facilitate competitve games.
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Post by abcba123 » Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:35 pm

Depends on the perspective we are looking from.

At one extreme, for some players, the purpose is too feed their ego, something too boast about, something to manipulate, and a source of endless debates and arguments.

At the opposite extreme, there is no purpose to the rating system. It means nothing and has no value to them. It's a hinderance to them, but they "put up" with it because the site is set up that way.

Neither of the above may be HW's purpose. Which is probably a system to allow one to play games with others of similar rating ? Notice I did not say skill or ability.

As previously exampled; TrashCan's rating of 1599 with 80 games played is a measure of his skill and ability ? Will his rating of 1599 ensure a competitive game ? The only thing his rating will ensure him of is a game against others of a similar rating.
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Post by omni_555 » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:13 pm

IMHO, a rating system serves basically the same purpose as does a scoring system.

And just like the score of an individual game doesn't always indicate definitively which team/player is better than the other(s), so the rating system doesn't always indicate definitively where a player stands in comparison to others.

The bottom line here is that the game would be VERY DIFFERENT if played with or without a rating system, just as it would be very different if played with or without keeping score. 8)
Playing games should be FUN - seek out your own level! Don't frustrate others unnecessarily. 8)

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Post by HEXA » Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:31 am

Imho, the purpose of the rating system is to allow individual table settings based on the 20 games you played to set a number which was designed to match that of your playing "rank". Provisional Playing clumps every (would be) rank together for 20 games, you never know who is sitting at the table. Once the rank is established, a person can choose to set/play with "likewise" players. Do i believe these rankings to be accurate? Not at all. Let me elaborate..

Different things have impact on what a person will rank and then also maintain in rank.

here are just a few:

Keep in mind, this pertains to all individual persons at the table not just you.

Age of player (the site allows for 13 and up persons)

Time spent playing (practice makes perfect, so they say)

Sport or fun (persons playing for the sport of it, tend to be a little more aggresive)

Knowledge of the game (situation experience/study/etc)

Style of play (for instance: nil-setter-setting.. there are many more styles)

Game of choice (mirrors, suicide, partners, cutt, 3way, 4way etc..)

Options of choice (BN, No nil, Nil 100/50)

Happenings outside of your control (quitting, subbing, botting, deals, luck of the draw, and the style of play of others at the table...etc)

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Dead Presidents
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Post by Dead Presidents » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:10 am

Oh I See
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Galt
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Post by Galt » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:50 am

Question for you Hexa.

Other than botting, which really means that you are not playing a rated game any longer, and choice of game (we have talked at length about carrying ratings from one game variant to another), why would you say that all of those other factors lead to inaccurate ratings?

All of those things you list are exactly what contribute to making ratings very good representations of a player's playing ability.
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Ratings

Post by Joe Andrews » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:54 pm

Very good commentary, here.

Here is my "slant" on ratings.

In Bridge and Cribbage, two Classic card games with National governing bodies, their respective Rating systems are based primarily on "live' events, and their organizations award Master Points. After many years of playing, a person matriculates toward different levels or plateaus of accomplishment. The goal is to become a Life Master, and then to go beyond that. (Gold, Silver, Bronze LM recognition) Duplicate Bridge is a game of high skill, and Cribbage is a solo (one on one one) game of skill, intuition, and luck.

In Chess, the Rating system is also geared to "live" play, and is based on the International FIDE logarithmic formula of a fluctuating numerical rating. A high rating is earned by competing (and winning) against equal and stronger opposition. Playing against weaker opponent is a waste of time, as you never improve your game or rating in this scenario. And Chess is a game of pure skill. The Grandmaster level in Chess is highly respected. Very few players become GM's.

These three games (which have only one set of rules and standards) have been around for a long time.

Spades was created in the late 1930's, and did not come into vogue until the 1960's. Even then, it still labored in obscurity for many years. The rise of the Internet in the early 1990's finally brough Spades to the forefront. There are two versions of the game (Original, with Jokers, no Nils and No Bags), and Modern (with Bags and Nils). Then we have DN, Cut, Mirrors, etc.)

Thus, we have a game with limited "live" tournaments, and a large Internet following. There is no central governing body for Spades, and many internet sites have their own Rules, Options, and Variations. Small wonder that any current rating system works. Kudos to HW for doing a good job with Ratings, considering the tangle which exists.

I agree with Galt that the HW or other sites Rating systems is better than no Ratings system. There has to be a way to guage a players ability and strength, Perhaps, in time, a sound Ratings formula can be worked out. However, on line play is replete with problems, some of which have been discussed. And that does not include cheating and the use of card counters and multiple computers. And let's not forget that you can enhance your rating by playing "cut" or DN, or any variation.

Most players are honest and do not take the game so seriously that winning is their Prime Directive, and at any cost! I always look forward to a competitive game with my friends and those who like to have a good time. Perhaps in the next generation, or so, Spades will be centrally organized, standardized, and in the same class as its closest cousin, Bridge. Maybe I will live long enough to watch this become reality. There are plenty of "good minds" out there who know the game, and the concept of a Universal standard.

Until then, enjoy Spades for what is meant to be. A good time playing cards with your family or friends!

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Post by TrashCanCharlie » Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:35 pm

Basically all a rating system is online is a tool that measures activity and or progress from which the body controlling the ip addy delegates.

The rating system cannot see what body, human, and or otherwise is controlling the play. Instead, all the rating system can measure is actions and results that occurred under that nic and or ip addy.

Basically what I am getting at is this..........................The rating system that any org uses for online activity can at best be, "Sub-Average."

We canniot be secure enough to govern it. In live rated events we do get to "See" visually the person attending as well as the actions they take during the event.

Live ratings will always reflect more accuracy about a "true" player. Online, we do not know if it was Joe, Jack, Jay, Jill, Johm. Pope Paul, or Elvis reincarnate controlling the mouse.

FYI those interested and for inquiring minds.............quite often trashcancharlie is sixteen year old son...............quite often sixteen year old sons nic is trashcancharlie and or Jay!!! Keep that in mind.... In his case while impersonating my nic it's michief most likely lol. In my case it's more of non computer savy logging on without noticing his nic was the last one used LOL.

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Post by Galt » Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:32 pm

I would think that the extent of multiple usage of nics is really very low, and have found ratings, both here and at other sites, to be a good representation of ability, -- except when a player has a relatively new nic and is working his or her way up, or the rating is being carried from a less demanding variant to a more demanding one.

Also, we may now have a hint as to that 1599 annecdote that has been discussed so much. There simply is no way that Jay could compile a 1599 rating over 80 games unless he was intentionally losing games -- any more than a 1500 player could compile a 1900 rating over 80 games.
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Re: re

Post by abcba123 » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:23 pm

TrashCanCharlie wrote:Basically all a rating system is online is a tool that measures activity and or progress from which the body controlling the ip addy delegates.

The rating system cannot see what body, human, and or otherwise is controlling the play. Instead, all the rating system can measure is actions and results that occurred under that nic and or ip addy.

Basically what I am getting at is this..........................The rating system that any org uses for online activity can at best be, "Sub-Average."

We canniot be secure enough to govern it. In live rated events we do get to "See" visually the person attending as well as the actions they take during the event.

Live ratings will always reflect more accuracy about a "true" player. Online, we do not know if it was Joe, Jack, Jay, Jill, Johm. Pope Paul, or Elvis reincarnate controlling the mouse.

FYI those interested and for inquiring minds.............quite often trashcancharlie is sixteen year old son...............quite often sixteen year old sons nic is trashcancharlie and or Jay!!! Keep that in mind.... In his case while impersonating my nic it's michief most likely lol. In my case it's more of non computer savy logging on without noticing his nic was the last one used LOL.

Regards,
TrashCanCharlie
Ha ! The mystery resolved on 1599; but the point remains as Jay has stated:

Online ratings are a mystery at best. You have no idea who it is or what they played to obtain their rating.

So as far as online ratings being "accurate"; I don't buy it. I've seen too many examples, across the internet of players with rankings up and down the scale dependent upon who they play and what game they may be playing.

If you want a challenge ??? Go try to get a 2000 rated nic on mirrors or suicide !!!

lol

Ratings are a guess, as close as the internet can perhaps come at this point in time.

Nothing surpasses KNOWING who your partner is !
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Post by Galt » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:49 pm

I am trying to figure out why every really good player that I have ever known has had a really good rating, why every really bad player I have know has had a really bad rating, and why over the past 8 years my rating has never once been subject to the distortion caused by the various artifacts viewed as causing ratings to be so meaningless.

I am also trying to figure out why I have never once heard a player contend that his rating is higher than it should be, but only lower than it should be.

Here is the unwelcome truth gang, if you play a whole bunch of games on a nic and do not use that nic is some atypical way, and have a 1600 rating, you are about a 1600 player. 1400 = 1400, and 2000 = 2000.

Baseball players have to play in all sorts of weather conditions, sometimes go against weak pictures, sometimes strong, sometimes get seeing eye hits, and sometimes line out 3 times in one game. Independent of any of that, if they are a 280 hitter they will wind up with a batting average right around 280.

Spades is no different. If someone has a rating that is significantly lower than he or she believes that it should be, it is becuase his or her game is not at the level that he or she thinks that it is.
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Post by Dust In The Wind » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:52 pm

Yep

JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Post by abcba123 » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:22 am

Here is the unwelcome truth gang, if you play a whole bunch of games on a nic and do not use that nic is some atypical way,
there's the key...atypical

As in TrashCan's post; we have no way of knowing who is playing or how the rating was created or what games they were playing. There is not enough information to make a 100% judgement of one's ability based on ratings.

Based on insufficient information, we all make ASSUMPTIONS based on the rating.

Those ASSUMPTIONS can be WRONG. Those ASSUMPTIONS can be CORRECT.

It's the nature of the Internet, and it happens every day. It's the reality.

Ratings are a good guess, nothing more. It's not rocket science and it is used and abused each and every day online.

Like it or not, that's the truth...
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