Placebo Effect...

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Todd Johnson
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Placebo Effect...

Post by Todd Johnson » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:11 am

Lets try getting some good discussion on this forum with a new topic. :D

What are your thoughts on the placebo effect and how it relates to Euchre (or any card game), and not just medicine?

For those who don't know what placebo means, here is the definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/placebo

Lets open up those minds... :P

-Todd

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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by GTO RACER » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:47 pm

Well I'd be the first to respond but Todd has already heard my boring azz input on this subject so for a change I'm going to keep my comments to myself.

Just Kidding!!!!

Ok.. on topic....

Placebo effect and Euchre in particular.... I think that there is a grass is greener on the other side kind of thought in regards to introducing the 7's up deck. In this I do see it as a temporary placebo effect at best, but I may be wrong.

What I see most of on Hardwood is players who consistently complain about the deals and the cards they get. What they should be doing instead of blaming it on the cards all the time is looking to see what they could have been done differently. I see errors in play made by peeps all the time. Whether they are passing the game away, not paying attention to the offsuit (ex. A of something is thrown away their P lays the K and they trump it forgetting K is high) and leading trump all too often.

When I get euched or I lose a game the first thing that I do is queston my play. Did I make an error. Most times my trigger finger is too fast and I'm aware of the error I made immediately. I do not jump and blame the cards or get mad about it. Do the cards sometimes lose the game for me? Yes... that's called luck. People that I play with and against know that no matter which way it's going that I will sit and play even if I'm on the losing side of the series. You have to ride it through.

With that in mind I think that alot of the viewpoint of 7's up will fix everything is just that ... a placebo effect. Come to the wonderful world of 7's up and your luck will surely change and the loppiness will go away.

I am very open minded to the 7s up deck and do want to the play the game with the extra cards BUT with that in mind I also think that as we get used to the additional cards we will learn how to play that deck the same as we do the 9 up deck.

I think that the loppiness will be minimized some due to the additional cards but I also think that mathematically there will be more closet loners.

7's up won't cure all that ails us and all that we complain about. It will serve as a placebo affect appeasing the majority of the HW Euchre population but that effect will be short lived as we become accustomed to the deck.

In my opinion the ONLY thing that will stop the crazy loners is to introduce the Dutch Loner Option..... If you don't make all 5 tricks alone.. you are euchered.... Seriously... who would ever block with that option in place. There would be much less need because Brentie and Andrew and Todd and Dewayne couldn't pull off these hands they call loners... they would be "euchered"everytime under those rules and I wouldn't have to block them... ;)

I want more options.. I want to play the 7's up deck. But I also think that the viewpoint that 7's up will solve all our problems is an illusion, an appeasement... hence a placebo effect.

But I do have an open mind about it until I get my hands on it and can play it for awhile. I will be the first to admit if my viewpoint was in error.

Boy I'd sure love to get a peek at that code.... I would gladly donate my time to code this option... depending on the language though I may have to brush up on my syntax.

Oh... and I'd definitely sneak us the rabbit avatar and the blip foom into smoots too while i'm at it... but shhhhh don't tell!
Last edited by GTO RACER on Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by Dust In The Wind » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:49 pm

HHHmmmm "Placebo Effect"......... sorry gave up sugar for Christmas


LOL


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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by Todd Johnson » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:50 pm

Now now, lets stay on topic... hehe :D

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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by callme7 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:02 pm

Lol, yeah yeah. All i have said, was that with the short deck and 84% of the cards in play, and with card distribution the way it is, it is very common to have a Loner lurking at nearly every hand dealt. With 7s up where you have just 62% alive, the chances of that closet loner are less. But i see your point. 7s up in my opinion is not a loner killer as you say, what it does do, is water the combinations down, that's enough for me. hehehe. :) :)

PS. I like what Janet said about a Dutch loner, maybe add to it, if they got 4 tricks you don't count that as a Euchre, just stays the same score. Oh man, so many different combinations. :D

Eennie Meenie

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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by GTO RACER » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:23 pm

callme7 wrote:PS. I like what Janet said about a Dutch loner, maybe add to it, if they got 4 tricks you don't count that as a Euchre, just stays the same score. Oh man, so many different combinations. :D

Eennie Meenie

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Gosh.. I never thought of that. 0 pts if you don't make it. That could be a double option just like the spades nil options. Dutch Loner Euchre and Dutuch Loner 0 pts. Then everyone can choose.

Actually I think it's amazing the things we can come up with to add to the game when we all put our heads together and stay on topic.
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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by Todd Johnson » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:46 pm

Uh no, I barely get three tricks let alone five when I go alone. Please, thats scary... :o

Garry, wouldn't there be more combinations if there are more cards? I tried it this weekend for the first time, fun. Seems like people play more conservatively, but most times you don't have to because of what is buried. First two or three games were ugly....lol but after a while I got the hang of it.

How about if you get euchred going alone the other team scores 4 points. Makes you second guess that risky loner on 6-6.

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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by GTO RACER » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:12 pm

Todd Johnson wrote:How about if you get euchred going alone the other team scores 4 points. Makes you second guess that risky loner on 6-6.
Oooo.... now I really like that one.. I'll sit against you guys anytime with that one. ;)
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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by Dust In The Wind » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:31 pm

I know I said I gave up "Sugar" for Christmas......

I agree with what you say GTO on the 7up's as a cure all and think you hit the nail on the head..... After playing it for a while good players will realize that they have the closet loner more often because so many cards are buried in the remaining deck. I've had hands where I had all the jacks and just sat back and said "Make my day whom ever bids" (hopefully my pard). 7ups changes the strategy of the game and risk even with 5 trump in hand since the a opt. could have A,J,J and euchre you with your 5 trump loner attempt. They could also be in the deck..... chances are good they are or at most one or 2 of them but you still get your 1.

"Make or Break" on loners for score is a good option but not one that I think many players will select or use... it could make the game interesting however and would stop those shots in the dark for the impossible not so likely. One of the things that really stand out and make euchre unique is that loner sort of like shooting the moon in hearts..... it's a feel good hand that you can throw into the opt. face and say "HA!!!!" or "*(^)%%)) (&^) (^)^$#%" (sorry the forum wouldn't translate that).

Euchre in my opinion has always been a game of chance and risk with a few cards determining your fate, some think it's easy since you only have 5 cards to decide how your going to play but I think of euchre as a game of guts (there is a card game called Guts)..... the ones that are aggressive enough win more often yes they get euchred but not as often as they make it because they know the cards (or have a contract with the Card GOD's).

I have seen lots of posts on blocking, next, crossing the river (over) for and against in several posts in here and have to agree that each in it's own has a time and place and there are no set rules that says this will work or that will work.... it is more of a "feel for the cards" deducing from what is turned up, to what is in your hand and "HOW" each person passes... and then when it's your turn you choose... you can be right and you be wrong but the key is being more right than wrong.

I'm a chance player in lots of games (poker, hearts, spades, euchre. etc.) with odds as my hidden voice and figure it this way.... if I play without risk I will win a fair amount of games and be satisfied BUT if I take that chance and live on the edge I will be rewarded win or lose knowing I pushed it to the limit and really be even more satisfied with the games I play.....

Oh yeah.... back on the subject.... I still thing 7ups would be a great addition to this game, would it be a placebo???.... maybe for some but I think a lot more of the players would enjoy the game more and I think the game overall would sell more (hint hint Jonas) especially in the south eastern pacific around Aussieland and the Big Z.

JUST DUST
TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by GTO RACER » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:36 pm

Dust In The Wind wrote:"Make or Break" on loners for score is a good option but not one that I think many players will select or use... it could make the game interesting however and would stop those shots in the dark for the impossible not so likely. One of the things that really stand out and make euchre unique is that loner sort of like shooting the moon in hearts..... it's a feel good hand that you can throw into the opt. face and say "HA!!!!" or "*(^)%%)) (&^) (^)^$#%" (sorry the forum wouldn't translate that).
I agree it won't be used much at least in my opinion in the lower games where people are less likely to go alone unless they have the perfect loner hand. The higher the skill level the more it will be used. Just my prediction.

I love the sun/moon screens in the other two games. BUT I have to interject in my experience in those games they don't happen that often. But then again even though I go on stretches where those are the games I play in lieu of Euchre I am not as diehard about them so prob haven't seen how often a sun/moon can occur.

In Euchre... eh... I don't want it.. 4 pt loners happen so often to me it would just hold up the game. And the last thing Brent, Todd, Dew or Andrew need is a "to do" like that to rub in the fact they pulled off a crap azz 4 suited loner or such. Brentie in particular already provides his own "to do" over those in the form of ... EVER. EVERY time. Or Todd and his "subtle" wow.. I had no business making that hand.

That's enough fanfare for me thank you. It's already bad enough knowing I threw away the wrong ace let alone some additional testosterone filled chest beating. In the other games it's not so bad when it happens and you're kind of happy for the people for shooting the moon. Not so in Euchre, at least for me, depending on who I'm against.

But that's just my opinion. Maybe we could do that but have Brentie's unlock code have that option voided out entirely so it never happens when he makes it.

I could live with that.
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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by Dust In The Wind » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:01 am

I probally go for a moon in hearts at least once per game (singles) and most hands in pards and make a good percentage of them, so chest beating is common especially when I "Sun"... LOL.... naw wasn't saying we needed the same fanfair in euchre as that, just that euchre is an unspoken "In your face" with a loner.

I know what you mean having 2 aces in the hole and throwing the wrong one trying to look into thier hand..... I kick myself all over the room for that one, knew I should have keep the other ace LOL

Yeah I think your right, higher rated players may use it more to get away from the "boredom" of winning all the time with crazy loners, LOL. I just stop paying attention here and there and that works the same way..... pet da dog, take a phone call, watch the TV for a sec. or 2, then when I look back it's like what did you do that for ya dumb Ogre........

JUST DUST

PS - I've actually euchred on a loner... was probally Drew or Todd on one of those crazy loner hands but they only lose 2 with a chance at 4, so I don't blame them for going for it.
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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by Sailing_Away » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:19 am

What if you drink sugar free 7up? Is that a placebo still? What if you like Sprite instead?
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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by American Beauty » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:02 pm

Yes! Peoples minds would be flooded with dopamine just by the mere fact that their voice has been heard! On that historical day there would be an uncontainable joy that would flood throughout all of Hardwood Kingdom and bells would resound through many other card-playing empires from the least to the greatest! Bringing in many to witness such a spectacle, their pockets filled with coin. Friends and neighbors alike of all generations, young and old with smiling faces to partake of the goodness that our magnanimous leaders crouched down on bended knee and granted the humble request of our loyal but determined plea.
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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by American Beauty » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:06 pm

In my opinion, there is no placebo effect with cards, because the same cards are dealt to everyone, however how a person feels and thinks definitely comes into play.
If I sit with a berating partner, best believe this will effect my style of play. If I take a risk and get euchred and my partner is supportive, I will be more likely to call again... keeping in mind the ironic truth that risky playing is the safer bet. The opposite holds true, too.

I recall sitting with a partner with a losing attitude... and we did just that.

And I also recall sitting with an excellent, supportive partner with the forces of nature against us only to win again and again.

My favorite saying to a new partner is, if I cannot lose with you, I cannot win with you.

Again, in my opinion, anything close to a placebo effect in Euchre has to do with you and your partner-- with the level of confidence you have, which is nurtured or deprived by that relationship.
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Re: Placebo Effect...

Post by Dust In The Wind » Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:58 pm

I totally agree you have to be a "PARTNER" with your partner, your in it together and you need to support each other throughout the game if not you have a lossing formula even if you do win.

Oh yeah and about that placebo....... how about it Jonas...... 7ups for all!!!!!

JUST DUST

PS - it would be a great option and maybe everyone would be quite again except WWW ...... and Jeff of course....


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TO BE OR NOT TO BE..... NOW WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??? TO BE OF COURSE!!!!!

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